Beyond Words with Dr. Mary Kathryn Nader

What if loss moms are still postpartum, even without a baby in their arms?

In this episode of The Sucky Sisterhood Podcast, Peyton sits down with Dr. Mary Kathryn Nader, a licensed professional counselor specializing in women’s mental health, perinatal mental health, and trauma.

Together, they talk about:

• The postpartum experience after pregnancy and infant loss
• How grief impacts the body, mind, and emotions
• What healing can look like with the right support and care

Mary Kathryn brings both clinical insight and deep compassion to this conversation, helping put language to experiences that many loss moms struggle to explain. She shares how grief and trauma can show up in different ways, and why feeling seen, safe, and supported is such an important part of healing.

This conversation offers clarity, validation, and a reminder that loss moms are not forgotten in their postpartum experience, even when the world around them moves on.

🔗 Connect with Dr. Mary Kathryn Nader

Website: www.findhopeccs.com
Podcast: A Journey to Whole Women Health

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the Sucky Sisterhood Podcast by Gathering Hope. I'm Peyton Lauderdale, host of the podcast and co-founder of Gathering Hope. Alongside Carol Vantyne, our co-founder and producer of this podcast, we're so glad you're here. This season is centered around the work we do through our Beyond Words workshop, where we equip healthcare professionals, ministry leaders, and others in the community to better support women who've experienced miscarriage, stillbirth, or infant loss. Over time, we realize that while there are many conversations about how to care for lost moms, there are far fewer that acknowledge the experience of those providing that care. One of our deepest hopes for this season is to help bridge that gap. In each episode, we're sitting down with people who walk closely with lost moms in some of their hardest moments. From medical professionals to counselors to ministry leaders, we're creating space for honest conversations about what that compassionate care can really look like. For some of our guests, this work is not only professional, but it's personal. And we want to acknowledge and honor that too. Each of these conversations has been a learning opportunity for us. They've reminded us of the importance of staying curious and listening well, and our hope is to bring understanding, perspective, and a more human side to these roles. Before we dive in, I want to take a moment to say this. We've come to deeply appreciate the weight that people in these roles carry. They're often present in moments that are incredibly tender and devastating, and that's not something that's always seen or acknowledged. So this season we want to be a space where people who walk alongside lost moms are honored too. Whether you're a lost mom yourself or someone who cares about lost moms, we're really glad you're here. Before we begin today's conversation, we want to start by sharing a story from a lost mom. These stories shared by women in our community reflect real experiences in some of the most difficult moments of their lives, and they bring awareness to things that often go unseen or are misunderstood. And while many of these moments are hard, we also invited our listeners to highlight the times when someone showed up with care, compassion, or left an impact in a meaningful way.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Early in my loss, my doctor referred me to a therapist who clearly hadn't taken the time to understand why I was there. I wish she had reviewed the information I provided ahead of the appointment so I didn't have to begin by explaining that my baby just died. I remember leaving that session thinking, why would I spend hundreds of dollars to talk to someone who doesn't even know me or my story when I could sit with a friend over coffee who truly knows and loves me? Later on, I did find a therapist who supported me deeply in my grief. But in those earliest days, it would have meant so much for the therapist to come in already familiar with my story. Instead, the experience felt clinical and unsafe.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Moments like that are why these conversations matter. Behind every role, every title, every interaction, there's a real person walking through something incredibly vulnerable. And today we're going to talk about what it looks like to step into those moments with care.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Today, Peyton is joined by Dr. Mary Catherine Nader, a licensed professional counselor who specializes in women's mental health and is certified in parinatal mental health and EMDR trauma therapy. She is the owner of Hope Counseling and Consulting Services in Willow Park, where she and her team support women walking through trauma, grief, and loss. In this conversation, they talk about what grief really looks like after loss and how to support moms in ways that are helpful.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Mary Catherine, thank you so much for being on the Sucky Sisterhood Podcast. I am so excited for our conversation today. If you would share a little bit about who you are, what your role is, and then tell us a little bit about what drew you into the work that you're doing today.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Sure. So I'm I'm Mary Catherine Nader. I am the owner of Hope Counseling and Consulting. We are out in Willow Park, Texas, which is right by Alito, west of Fort Worth. We do counseling in person and online. I specialize in women's mental health. So I only see adult women. A lot of postpartum depression, anxiety, infertility, grief, loss, trauma is my specialty. I'm certified in EMDR and perinatal mental health. So I love working with adult women and helping them find that freedom. What drew me into this was I experienced postpartum depression myself after my the birth of my second child and really just couldn't find anyone who specialized in that and saw that there was just a need for women's mental health and decided to really focus and specialize. And that's what I do. So I love it.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

I love that you mentioned that you have a specialty in um tell tell us your specialty again for perinatal.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Sure. It's a PMHC. So perinatal mental health certification is the specialty that I have there. And then I have in certification in EMDR as well.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

So what I think so many people in the world don't often acknowledge is that lost moms are postpartum moms. And um, can you talk a little bit about that that that phenomenon?

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Yes, for sure. I mean, definitely. I mean, you've been pregnant. And so there's all the hormones there, there's all of the emotions, uh, all the hopes and expectation that went into that, all of the excitement a lot of times, if you've shared the news with family and friends, and then there's the grief uh that accompanies that. So um, yes, at a lot of times we're dealing with lactation, dealing with um all the things that a a person who has a baby going home with them has just don't have the baby, but your body is still making all those changes and adjustments, which is huge and can be really difficult.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Really difficult, really confusing. Um, all the things. Um, but I'm so I'm so glad that there are therapists out there that um that have certifications like this that acknowledge that this is definitely a very real thing. Um, I know for me, not only were there, you know, hormones and stuff going on, but you you mentioned lactation and how triggering that was for me and all of the feelings and the thoughts. Every time I got sad, like and I'm actually crying, um, I would have a letdown. And I felt like I was crying out of two places in my body every single time, and how emotional that was for me. Um, and so I'm just grateful that there are people out there who fully understand and acknowledge that. That's for sure. Yeah, it's so important. So uh specifically talking about your lost mom clients, in your experience, what are some of the moments um where you interact with lost moms? So a lost mom becomes one of your clients. What does what is maybe her first interaction with you look like?

SPEAKER_01 7:08

A lot of times I see lost moms after the the loss that referred to me maybe by their OBGEN or you know, the nurse or the chaplain at the hospital and or their their doctor. And so I'll see them after that. Typically we process through that grief. A lot of times there's trauma involved as well. So, and we can do some EMDR processing. Uh uh a lot of times I journey with them for a while. Um, like I have lost moms who uh started seeing me after a loss, maybe walk through infertility for a while, a pregnancy, maybe another loss, or maybe a healthy pregnancy. Um, and then we process all that while they're pregnant because there's so much fear and um trauma associated with that new pregnancy. Um, and then until after, I have quite a few moms now that are, you know, have had their rainbow baby or their uh baby after having a loss, and they still come follow up because even still there can be a fear of something happening, especially when you've experienced that before. So um, so yeah, it's it's I I love it because I get to walk alongside through this journey with so many women and hear things that not everyone gets to hear about that experience and and uh just be a safe space for them.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

Yeah. So what do those moments from the other side of the room feel like for you? So I think there's um with what our purpose of this season is to help identify though where some of those communication gaps are, but also acknowledge that people, you know, the people who walk alongside lost moms, like what is it like on the other side for them? So as you're counseling uh multiple lost moms, what do you want people to know about what the experience is like for you?

SPEAKER_01 8:57

For me, I always tell people, I I just feel like it's such a privilege and an honor. And I really do mean that. Um there are so many times that people leave and I think, wow, no one else gets to hear that or to witness people, you know, being set free from this trauma or being able to really grieve a difficult loss, working through really difficult topics and um wrestling with God uh about really hard things. And so um, I mean, it really is such a privilege for me. I I think often how cool it is that I get to to do this. Like it's just and that people trust me with it because they can be so vulnerable. I mean, there's things that people say that I mean they haven't and probably won't say to anybody else. And that's just a really neat experience to be able to provide that space for them. Um be, I mean, of course there's Kleenexes next to the couch, but I always tell them, you know, it's don't ever apologize for crying. If you can't cry here, where can you cry? And I always have Kleenexes by me too. I cry sometimes. Like, um we're just here to walk through it um with them. So um I I I love it. I'm very thankful for what I get to do.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

What does it look like uh to build trust with a client as they, you know, they're walking into their your office, they don't know you. They don't they don't even know that there is such a thing as a safe space for their story. So can you walk us through a little bit what it looks like to build that relationship, build that trust?

SPEAKER_01 10:37

So of course I send paperwork and we have a HIPAA compliant portal that they fill out paperwork before coming, and that explains what the the relationship looks like. It explains our confidentiality. Um, and then I go over that in the first session, obviously, and just tell them, you know, whatever you share here stays here, unless there's any concern of you hurting yourself, hurting somebody else, somebody hurting you, want to keep you safe. But um, you know, I tell them if I see you outside of this space, I'm gonna act like I don't know you. Um, and that's not me being rude or mean. I I want to come give you a hug, but I never want to put anyone in an uncomfortable situation. So um I've seen and been introduced to clients in public and just act like I don't know them. I have some clients who are like, this is my therapist, y'all. You know, it's you know, it's totally up to them, but we would never talk about anything from in the counseling office. And I just clarify that for them. So that just really helps them to know that this is a safe space, that really nothing is gonna leave this room. And, you know, basically unless they tell somebody they're seeing me, nobody knows, except for if they're using insurance, then of course their insurance uh will know. But other than that, like it's um I just try to assure them and let them know that's how the therapy relationship works and answer any questions that they have about that. And then I just do the things around the office, like I have a blanket, I have, you know, tissues, I have a stool for them to put their feet up, I have, you know, a little heater if they're cold, like all that kind of stuff, just to make them feel we have water bottles and things that they can just feel comfortable and safe, hopefully.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

Yeah, those those little extra things, they really add up, they matter. Um, and I think so many people don't know, they just don't know what to expect. You know, like this is probably um I remember um, you know, my husband, Justin. Um, the first time we went to therapy after losing James, we left that office and I was like, I hate that it took losing our child to enter into an office like this because there's so many, so many things that we could have used help with along the way. No, we'd been married for almost 10 years at that point. But I think there, you know, there's we either make it up in our head or we see things on TV and we just have no idea what to expect. And so that for for me, that first appointment was just all tears. And I don't think I made any kind of sense at all. Um, and it was just extremely emotional. And I can't, I have to imagine I'm not the only one who is like that. First appointment is like, what did we did? We accomplish anything? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

And that's okay. You know, sometimes just being present and allowing yourself to feel the feels that is accomplishing something, you know, like that's important.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Yeah, thanks for validating that. So, what has been the most surprising to you, either about the work that you do or about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 13:38

I think I it's not it's surprising, but not just to witness how resilient women are, you know, these things that people walk through, and I just we know it, but I get to witness it like you never know what someone is going through. You really do not. Um, even if you think you do, you don't know the whole story. And I I just am always so impressed by women who can share their stories and just have been through so so many difficult things. But if you met them at work or you met them, you know, at your neighborhood party, you would have no idea. And um I I just that's it's surprising, but not. I mean, it's just it's just amazing to see it in reality.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

Yeah. Um, women are I I think I've said this on every episode, but we are we're so complex and we carry so many things. And um, like if it was just losing our baby, that would be one thing, but it's never just one thing. Can you speak more to what you're experiencing in the office with women?

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Sure. I mean, I think that there's the grief of losing the child, but there's also just how it's multifaceted, how it affects so many parts of your life, how it affects what you thought, you know, the next year would look like, even with work. Like I expected to take off from maternity leave, or we had made these plans to do XYZ, and um, we have this nursery, or this is how it was affecting the other siblings, and this is how it's affecting the extended family, and our marriage, and um friendships, even, you know, uh, that can be a hard thing. And so I think it's just so multifaceted. Uh it can affect more than just that one piece.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

And what are some of the ways that you counsel people through that, that multifaceted, like let's sit, let's talk friendships for one example. You know, um, things are just you're not the same person. And so I know you can't like give advice, advice, but how do you counsel women through I'm not the same person, my friends expecting me to be, or other friendship dynamics? What does that look like?

SPEAKER_01 15:58

I think it's clear is kind, you know. I always love that saying, but just to be able to share with someone, like, hey, I love you so much, but I cannot come to this baby shower right now, you know? Or I'm gonna try my best to be there, but if I just disappear, no, it's just because it's not about you. I just needed to take a break. Um, and they don't have to understand, they're probably not going to if they haven't been through it before, and that's okay. They don't have to understand. Uh, but just communicating the best that you can with them about what you're experiencing and what you need. Um, they might not be able to meet those needs, and that's that's okay. But just to be able to express that and be honest.

unknown 16:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Um, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

It is okay. But but I think so many times we think that we need to not only tend to ourselves, but to everyone else's emotions. Um, has anyone else in your office ever walked in thinking they need to like carry everyone else's emotions as well? For sure.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

Yes. And I I think, you know, if we don't take care of ourselves, we can't take care of anyone else. And no one else is gonna take care of us. So we take care of ourselves in order to be able to take care of our kiddos, in order to be able to take care of the people at, you know, that we care for at our jobs or at work, or so it's not selfish to take care of ourselves. It's what allows us to do those other things.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

So true. What does that look like for you as a therapist who's holding a lot of stories? What does that look like for you to take care of yourself?

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Um, I think there's a lot of things. Um, definitely setting good boundaries, you know, having a time where you're working, where are where I'm working and when I'm not working, um, recognizing how many clients can I actually see in a day and not and still be like you be okay to go home and spend time with my family and not be totally exhausted. Um, even though there's so many people to help, you know, um you have to just kind of set good boundaries of what you're able to do. And um, you know, having hobbies, there's lots of different things I like to do and making time for those, um, making time to be with family, getting good rest, you know, taking care of my body, exercising, like all that kind of stuff, just allows me, and I definitely feel a difference when I'm not doing those things for sure. Um, and I think it it is what allows us, those of us in the caregiving profession. So I wrote my dissertation on compassion fatigue. And oh, say more about that, please. Yeah. So compassion fatigue is a big topic that women struggle with, especially, but anybody in a caregiving profession. And because women especially take so much to care for others, not only typically in jobs like teaching, nursing, therapy, um, medicine, but also we're expected to be the caregivers at home, whether it's for kiddos or for extended family, whether it's in the office, you know, being the ones to plan the showers or the meals or the caregiving things, so it can just feel overwhelming. We actually um oh, I guess I did mention that also I do a podcast with my friend Jamie Irwin, who you had. Yes. I want you to say more about that too. Yeah. So we just did an episode on on this compassion fatigue. So you uh people can listen to that more if they want to. It's our our webcast, our podcast is called A Journey to Whole Woman Health. Um, so we just talk about different women's topics together. She's an Obi-Gen, obviously sees women and and then for me, specializing in women's mental health. So it's been really fun. Um, but we did an episode on compassion fatigue and just talking about um how important it is to set those boundaries for ourselves, to take care of ourselves, to take time, um, to take time out, to do like little rituals um throughout the day, like at the beginning of your workday, at the end of your workday, kind of a way to signal to yourself, I'm starting this, like, and even just a prayer, like, God, I'm coming into my office, I'm turning on the lights, you're here with me. Um, guide these conversations, you know, and then turning off lights, closing the doors, going home. God, you go with all of these clients, like you are with them. Um, I don't carry these things, you do, and you're providing for them. And then like changing clothes, even when you get home, just different things that just tell yourself, okay, I'm done with that part of my day, and now I'm here to be present with my family or do this fun activity, um, whatever it may might be to give yourself a a break.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Mine is uh linked to shoes. So when uh when I still have shoes on, I'm still working. I don't know why that is, but when I take my shoes off at the end of the day, and like I might still be home because oftentimes I'm coming home to do more. Um, but when my shoes are off, that means it's time to switch my brain into to family mode. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Love that. Yes, it's true because our body really like feels that difference, you know? Yeah, that's great. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 21:19

Yes. Um, when we think about lost moms and and the care that they're given, um, you've walked with a lot, you've provided some of that care. What are small things that that make a bigger difference than people might expect?

SPEAKER_01 21:34

I think taking the time just to be curious and listen uh to people instead of making an assumption about them, like assuming um somebody is doesn't have kids because they don't want kids, you know, or making a comment like that, or assuming even when a someone's pregnant that it's a healthy pregnancy and everything's okay. Assuming there's just so many things that we make assumptions about. Um Um, even strangers, you know, checking out at Target or H E B or wherever and make a comment. So to just be present with them and just just as a way to say, like, I see you, how are you today? And not just being like, Oh, you must be so excited. Like there they might not be. They might know that this baby's not gonna live much longer. They might know that um, you know, difficult things are ahead. So just being a little more curious instead of just making assumptions for people.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

What are some good questions you can ask to be curious?

SPEAKER_01 22:32

I just think, you know, how are you? How how is this pregnancy going for you? How has how have you been? You know, and they might just give a short answer because they don't want to talk about it and that's okay. Um, or they might be great and it might be great. Or they might really want to to share and talk and you know, be ready to listen. So um, yeah, just kind of opening that door a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

I think that's good advice for all of us. Are there things that are even well intentioned, but that can unintentionally make moments for lost moms even harder?

SPEAKER_01 23:06

I think for sure. Um, the at leasting, I I know I hear a lot of people say that at least you have this, or at least you have other kids, or at least you made it this far, or at least you know this, or at least like that leasting is not helpful. All right, no one el no one so far has told me that it was helpful. I think a lot of times there's a lot of things like that that we do without just paying attention um and being pregnant present for people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

Um, out of the, and obviously you can't share, you know, names or anything like that, but but out of the clients that you've seen, has anyone shared care that has been done really well? And because we want to, we want to highlight those stories as we go through. Um, you know, a lot of the stories that we carry are so painful. My, you know, my nurse said this or my doctor did that. Um, or sometimes it's even a therapist who has been dismissive. But but what are some things that have been that you've heard of that have been especially meaningful to some of your clients?

SPEAKER_01 24:12

I think um a lot of clients have shared about times in the hospital and the the nurses that care for the baby being just so kind, you know, and taking pictures or just providing the handprints or the footprints and just giving them all the time that they need. I think that that's a huge gift for people. Any of those memories, I think, are are like you can't put a price tag on that. And I think the doctors who really take the time to listen uh and and be present to hear their concerns, especially when they're trying to get pregnant after a loss or are pregnant after a loss, recognizing the things that could be traumatic for them after what they've experienced and and giving them that space and time and acknowledging it, not being annoyed or or um frustrated uh by the their response or by, you know, them wanting to ask more questions or taking longer. I think just the sonographers who actually take the time to explain, especially after they've had a loss, the different things. I think really just being, again, taking the time and being present for caregivers. I think it's easy for us to get into this is my job, I've got to get through this patient, then I have this patient, then I have this patient. I mean, I I get that. But really taking the time to recognize everybody's situation and experience is different, and they're gonna have different concerns or memories or or things attached to each part of the process.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

I think that nuance is what makes it extra hard, right? Like, no, because everyone is so different, all their needs are different, their triggers are different, their memories are different. And so I I mean, I would imagine trying to take care of so many different lost patients and healthy patients at the same time is is really difficult. But what about for you specifically in your practice? What is a scenario where you're like, I got that one right?

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Anytime that I just see someone who, I mean, you just can see their body language when they come in of just being very tense and tight and all the emotions, you can just see it. And when they leave, just like relaxed, and their shoulders are relaxed, and they can acknowledge it themselves, and they're even maybe smiling. Like that for me is just like a okay, you can see that they're feeling better and that they're not feeling that overwhelmed feeling in their body anymore. And that doesn't always happen in one session, but it's it's really great when you see that change happen.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

Yeah, there's nothing like a transformation for people. It's such a sacred thing to get to witness it. And I know that you have experienced that probably tenfold what I have, that yeah, it is something really special to be part of. What about areas to grow? Um, so in in the clinical space as a therapist, what are some areas that there's room to grow?

SPEAKER_01 27:14

I think, you know, there's always room to grow in education, like for all of us to continue to educate ourselves on grief, on loss, to be comfortable with it, to be comfortable to sit in that. It's not something you just fix, you know, but to allow people to feel those feelings to educate ourselves on all the hormones, all the changes, mental health of everything with perimenopause and post postpartum. Women go through so many things. There's just so much to learn. It's an understatement, girl. It is. It's just so much.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

Um I think you're right. Education is key. And um, I love what you said about being curious. So I think I think being curious and and like, you know, trying to get your hands on as much education and being part of as many conversations and you know, emerging research. And it lost moms uh as a whole have only been studied like seriously in the last like 10 to 15 years.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Yeah. It's it's surprising how how little research there is. I feel like there's more um more trainings available. I feel like there's more books coming out. Like I just feel like there is more awareness of the topic and of the need for that research. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

It's uh but there is, and I I would love your perspective on this. Just me as a last mom, as someone who runs a lost mom organization, I feel really hopeful that there is there are more studies being done. There are more people who are interested in this, in this part of, you know, therapy, trauma-informed care. Like I just feel like there's there's so much coming. As we close, I want to ask, what is one thing you wish people better understood about caring for someone experiencing loss?

SPEAKER_01 29:10

I think um again, just that it's such a a gift to be able to be that person to do it. I mean, it's it is so it's just so cool to me. Like it's a calling for sure. Um, but to be able to um journey alongside and witness that transformation for people, it really is an awesome thing to do. And I know a lot of people in care, like different parts of the caregiving journey, like maybe the nurses who are just there when it happens and don't get to see the whole story. Um, it's harder for for me, it's fun that I get to see, you know, more of that journey with them. So that's really rewarding um for me.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

Yeah, you definitely get to spend a lot more time with them um than than people in the hospital setting. Do you work with uh medical professionals?

SPEAKER_01 30:05

I do. I have a few clients that are in the medical profession. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

So when they um are on your couch and they've um they've been part of traumatic losses at the hospital, what what do we need to know about what they're experiencing?

SPEAKER_01 30:25

I think for them it it is traumatic, you know? I mean, they're having to kind of compartmentalize it in their brain because they've got to be present to do the thing in front of them, especially when it's, you know, quick and there's um a lot of decisions to make. Um, so I think recognizing for them that they're doing their best, you know, they really are. And they're working hard and they um they want to help. Like that's why they're there. And it's, I mean, they're amazing people. Like I I love getting to work with medical professionals because they they're there because they want to help people, and I love that.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

Thank you for sharing that perspective. Mary Catherine, if people want to connect with you after this episode, how can they do that? Share the name of your podcast again and then how people can connect with you.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Journey to Whole Woman Health is the name of our podcast. Um, and then through my website, which is findhocccs.com, is my practice website. So that's where people can schedule with me or um look up information, that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

So people can also access, uh, we have you listed under therapists on on the Gathering Hope website as well. So we have a lot of people in the Gathering Hope community who love you and who have been cared for you in a very, very compassionate way. And so I just wanted to say thank you from me on behalf of all the lost moms that you care for. We're really grateful for you.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Yes. Yes. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

Thank you, and thank you for being on the podcast today. This is great.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Sure. I love it. I love what y'all do. Y'all are amazing. I send so many people to Gathering Hope because it's so great. I mean, it's one thing to have a person, you know, listening, but it's another thing to have a community and a lot, you know, of other women who really understand and get it. I think that's so, so important. So thank y'all for what you do.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Thank you for being a part of this conversation. At Gathering Hope, we believe that caring well for lost moms goes beyond words. It looks like presence, understanding, and a willingness to learn how to show up in meaningful ways. Through our Beyond Words workshop, we continue to equip individuals, ministries, and healthcare professionals to support grieving mothers with compassion and care. If something from this conversation stayed with you, we'd love for you to take a next step. You can share this episode with someone in your life who wants to care well. Follow along with Gathering Hope on Instagram, Facebook, or TikTok, or visit gatheringhope.org to learn more about our Beyond Words workshop and how we can bring it to your community. And as always, whether you're a lost mom or someone who cares about lost moms, we're so grateful you're here.