Beyond Words with April Snyder

What if the most meaningful thing you can do is simply stay?

In this episode of The Sucky Sisterhood Podcast, Peyton sits down with April Snyder, a hospital chaplain and loss mom who walks closely with families in some of their most vulnerable moments.

Together, they talk about:

• What it means to be present in grief without trying to fix it
• The role of spiritual care in moments of loss
• How words, even when well-intended, can deeply impact a grieving mom

April shares from both her personal experience of loss and her work in the hospital, offering a thoughtful perspective on what it looks like to sit with someone in their pain. She speaks to the importance of creating space, honoring questions, and allowing grief to be what it is without rushing it toward resolution.

This conversation is a gentle reminder that meaningful care doesn’t come from having the right answers, but from being willing to stay, listen, and simply be present.

🔗 Connect with April Snyder

Instagram: @eripsni

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to the Sucky Sisterhood Podcast by Gathering Hope. I'm Peyton Lauderdale, host of the podcast and co-founder of Gathering Hope. Alongside Carol Vantyne, our co-founder and producer of this podcast, we're so glad you're here. This season is centered around the work we do through our Beyond Words workshop, where we equip healthcare professionals, ministry leaders, and others in the community to better support women who've experienced miscarriage, stillbirth, or infant loss. Over time, we realize that while there are many conversations about how to care for lost moms, there are far fewer that acknowledge the experience of those providing that care. One of our deepest hopes for this season is to help bridge that gap. In each episode, we're sitting down with people who walk closely with lost moms in some of their hardest moments. From medical professionals to counselors to ministry leaders, we're creating space for honest conversations about what that compassionate care can really look like. For some of our guests, this work is not only professional, but it's personal. And we want to acknowledge and honor that too. Each of these conversations has been a learning opportunity for us. They've reminded us of the importance of staying curious and listening well, and our hope is to bring understanding, perspective, and a more human side to these roles. Before we dive in, I want to take a moment to say this. We've come to deeply appreciate the weight that people in these roles carry. They're often present in moments that are incredibly tender and devastating, and that's not something that's always seen or acknowledged. So this season we want to be a space where people who walk alongside lost moms are honored too. Whether you're a lost mom yourself or someone who cares about lost moms, we're really glad you're here. Before we begin today's conversation, we want to start by sharing a story from a lost mom. These stories shared by women in our community reflect real experiences in some of the most difficult moments of their lives, and they bring awareness to things that often go unseen or are misunderstood. And while many of these moments are hard, we also invited our listeners to highlight the times when someone showed up with care, compassion, or left an impact in a meaningful way.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

It made me question God's reasonings for wanting to take my baby from me, for what good purpose could come from that. I don't believe it's God's will for me to go through that pain. I can't believe that he would want that for me. Does he allow trials and tribulations to happen in our lives here so we can lean on him more? Yes. But is he the direct reason for my loss? Did he take my baby? No. I do not and cannot believe that. That's my opinion and belief.

SPEAKER_03 2:58

Moments like that are why these conversations matter. Behind every role, every title, every interaction, there's a real person walking through something incredibly vulnerable. And today we're going to talk about what it looks like to step into those moments with care.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Today, Peyton is joined by April Snyder, a hospital chaplain who supports families in some of their most overwhelming and sacred moments. In this conversation, they talk about what it means to offer presence, comfort, and spiritual care after loss.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

Hey April, thank you so much for joining me on the Sucky Sisterhood Podcast. I am so glad to have you here. This is going to be one of my favorite conversations, I think, because we get to kind of blend both the medical and the ministry together. So, April, if you would introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about who you are, and then tell us what drew you to the work that you're doing now. Thanks, um, Peyton.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

And my my name is April, obviously. Um, I'm a chaplain resident. And about me, I'm married. I don't have any children yet. I'm a lost mom. What drew me into the ministry was actually I was pre-med. I wasn't even gonna go this route. I did minor in religion. I I did pre-med and I only added religion aspect on because I was tired of being in the science building all day, every day. And so I was like, I need a break from the lab, and I was TA ing, and I I just was really tired of spending all my hours there. So I just did that, and um, it was a heartbreak, actually. It was a bad breakup that led into ministry because I ended up, yeah, I ended up taking a gap year. I interviewed for med school and I was debating on the expense for everything. And I took a year to be a missionary to my boyfriend at the time had convinced me and uh he broke up with me after I signed the contract to go. And so that's how it happened. And then from there, it just I didn't realize that I was kind of a chaplain. Okay. As I was working abroad, and so I was like, when I came back, that work just kind of continued and it just it morphed into what it is today in in the hospital sense, which I love.

SPEAKER_03 5:10

And so you're a resident now, but say more a little bit about how you're like, well, I was I was a chaplain. Like, what what about that season gave you that clarity?

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Yeah. So if somebody said, you know, you're doing chaplain work, I would have been like, uh, I don't even really know what a chaplain is, what a chaplain does. Okay. I didn't know, but once I had come back, I had become an associate chaplain at a university. And so then I realized the whole time I was abroad, I was walking with people and navigating their struggles. In that context, it was people that were living abroad and weren't where there were gaps in communication, there were gaps in expectation. And I was meeting them where they were and just journeying with them to where we all needed to be. It took time. And so I didn't realize that was the precursor work into what I was doing. I didn't realize it was chaplaincy until I became a chaplain. I'm like, oh wow, I had been journeying with people. That's so interesting. I didn't know I didn't know there was a name for it.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

So I, you know, I started this episode saying there's gonna be a mixture of medical and ministry for people who haven't maybe been in a hospital setting or they're they've never interacted with a chaplain. Can you share what what is a chap what does a chaplain do? What how do they serve?

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Yeah, so I would say the best definition that someone gave me about a chaplain is that they are a witness. They are a witness, and you'll probably find that throughout our conversation. That that that word might come up quite often, is we witness people's moments of grief, and we also witness their ethical decisions, and we witness um the tragedies, and we are there for all of it. And so that would be the best, and that's a little bit nebulous. I would say we're not just there to pray. Most people say, Oh, you're a chaplain. So you're either here to deliver really bad news or you're here to pray with me. And that's not the case. We're really the best way to describe it is that we are the witness of the hospital. We are the witness to your journey, and we help navigate and give language to your struggle, and maybe be your advocate and your voice in a room where people are kind of just they're they're they're linear, they're thinking one thing, and then we can see as your voice and as your advocate that you may not be on the same page. And so we kind of pause, stop, and maybe give give you an opportunity to kind of journey to where the clinical staff might be, if I could describe it.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

So, and you also mentioned at the top of this interview that you are a lost mom. And I would love for listeners to learn a little bit more about that part of you and your journey, and then we'll dive deeper into some of the other questions.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Yeah. So when I got married, which was in 2019, I had come back to the US at the end of 2017, got married, and I was a little late uh getting married. I I wasn't late. That's not the right word. I was later, so there was already the rush of like, am I gonna be able to have children? And I I I was already like 30, and that's not late, but I I say that in my context because when I started to try, it just there was something up. And I I I remember the first time I had a miscarriage, I just was really shocked because this conversation of fertility and children had never come up. Everyone made it sound so easy, like it was just gonna happen naturally when you were ready. So, you know, ignorantly I was a little confused by like, okay, I'm here, I'm doing the things, and I'm not having children. And so I had a few miscarriages, and then I immediately got treated for endometriosis, and I had a surgery, and then we tried again with medication, couldn't. And after that surgery, we just went straight to IBF. And um, yeah, and then if a I I was a successful candidate, I was healthy, doing all of the things I should. The doctors told me I was so so such a good candidate for it. And we got all of our embryos, and then I did two cycles of IBF and both of them failed. And I was really shocked. And it was a little that was probably the most heart-wrenching part because you've already kind of you don't really finish processing your losses as naturally. But when I got to IBF, it was like I knew their gender, I knew everything about them. And then I there was just such an anticipation because there's this language around loss, especially if it happens early, that you're not really pregnant or that it's not really happening for you. And so I was I was kind of living in between this dissonance of like, Am I, did I really get pregnant? I I know that I tested and I was positive and I went to the doctor and I tested, but then I'd lose it. But seeing the embryos, seeing that they were there and that they had there was it felt like there was something more, and to lose that was really devastating. After that, I just gave up, even though there were a couple more embryos. I just gave up on that. And then I had two more losses following that, and that's where we are. So with the IVF, that puts me at around seven, seven. And then without five, five naturally.

SPEAKER_03 10:36

Thank you so much for sharing that part of your story. And I'm sure that that plays into who you are as a resident and who you'll become in your career. So, in the experience that you've already had, what are some of those moments where you find yourself walking with lost families? What is it like when you walk into a room where you know there a loss is either impending or is, you know, actively in process?

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Yeah, in my work, I find myself in the moment when their worst nightmare is happening, when they are in the place of inevitability. And inevitability is not negative or positive, it's neutral. A hospital, right? A hospital that should be the place where you're about to celebrate life. You know, it can hold that significance for you as you've done your checkups, as you've come in. But when you have experienced a loss, as I've seen with lost moms, it can be very difficult. And this is the duality of the hospital. Um, a place of celebration turns into a place of sorrow. And these moments that I meet with them can be four can be before they're going into the procedure, after they've haven't heard the heartbeat, or just sitting with the mom who is holding her fetus. But the hospital is only the place where that begins. I have found myself, as I have shared my losses with these lost moms, I found myself in the place with women after people are kind of wanting them to move past it. And this I think is just as meaningful as the moment when the loss is very vivid in their mind. It like if it just occurred. And I find myself seeing them and being with them when they are hopelessly sad and unseen. And many people don't realize the emotional and spiritual weight that's carried with that.

SPEAKER_03 12:18

Yeah, that's actually my next question. So if you would share a little bit about what so I don't know if you're referring to the mom's spiritual experience or yours. But I would love for you to elaborate a little bit on what you meant by that and then also enlighten us. What is it like on your side of the room? What is it like for you, um, not only as a lost mom, but as a chaplain? So many of us don't realize the people that interact with us on our lost mom journey are carrying their own things. And so what we're hoping to do with this season is to let people know what it's like for you as a chaplain.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Yeah. For me, sometimes my presence is all that I can offer them. I have learned as a lost mom and as a chaplain, I cannot fill the space with meaningless words, which I have seen is the case sometimes, or try to unawkward the moment. You know, the spiritual way I carry is this was never supposed to happen for them. And I hate it for them. I absolutely hate it for them. And I want them to know that I carry them with me. These aren't cases that at the end of the shift, I'm just like, well, it's done. And these are the stories I carry, the moms that I carry in these babies. They stay with me. They stay with me. And this is deserved. What do you mean by that? To hold their moments in your heart. I mean, you obviously have to have balance. You can't carry everyone's sorrow, but there is a respect I think that is deserved for the bravery and the courage that it takes to be in this journey, be in this room for them. And I want to honor their moments. And so I don't flippantly turn it off when I leave their spaces and when I leave that shift.

SPEAKER_03 14:08

Yeah. What do chaplains have? Is there is there a community? Like when you experience, you know, a a really traumatic and hard day, what does that look like for you? So you're carrying that story. It is, it is a weight on you. And you're like you were saying, you know, the this is a case that is deserves the weightiness that you're carrying, right? But what do you do with that after?

SPEAKER_01 14:31

I think what we do is we reflect in community. That's the good thing about being with other chaplains, is that we are in our process of reflection. That's one of the heaviest things we do. We reflect under supervision. We reflect over um encounters that were very meaningful to us. And when there is a loss, whenever I see on the chart this there is a consult for a woman who's going through loss, I remember to center myself and then ask myself, is this going to need reflection after? And that's part of honoring their story. I don't want to go in there flippantly. Every story has its nuance and its its special specialness about it. But I think the best thing is centering yourself, understanding that we do bring our whole selves in the room. I bring my lost story in the room. And it's not about me, but I do bring it with me. And how am I reflecting afterwards to give myself and the lost ones I serve respect?

SPEAKER_03 15:34

I think there are so many people who have no idea your prep work before you walk in, what you're doing afterwards. This is so enlightening for me as someone who has interacted with chaplains in a hospital bed myself, but also through our workshop. I think there is probably a huge misconception out there that, yeah, you're just here to pray with me. Thank you so much. You know? Yeah, definitely. Um, what has been most surprising to you as you have walked with bereaved parents, either about the work that you're doing or about yourself? And you can answer both if you'd like.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Yeah. I think the most surprising thing is that I find that grieving parents are still thinking of others in this in in the midst of their grief. I wonder about that. Yeah, I once met a very beautiful, precious lost mom who looked at me in the middle of our visit and said, Oh, you have lost too, haven't you? I didn't say anything. I don't know how she knew. Um and then she asked me, How are you feeling? And we were holding her fetus together. And I just took a breath because I was shocked at the other-centeredness of this mom. And you could just feel this beautiful spirit about her. What surprises me as I say all of that, that that was a big surprise. But the biggest surprise is that she brought Jesus into the room, and I didn't I just acknowledge the presence. I didn't have to bring anything into the room. And before I could even bring comfort, she had already been comfort. And so that really shocked me. That really shocked. I mean, I'm staying I'm still in awe. I'm still in awe about it.

SPEAKER_03 17:17

Yeah, I am too, but also at the same time not because I know lost moms so well. And there is something about I'm having to pause to think about this because I I don't I don't want to. And no matter what your background is, no matter who you are coming into the room, no matter your political beliefs, your race, your age, it just does not all those barriers go out when you find out that someone else has experienced the loss of their baby. And that unifying that that commonality brings us together in ways that I never imagined would be possible.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

Yeah. And what what I would I would echo on that, especially, you know, I really felt that connection even though I didn't know her. And what I learned when I learned from these lost moms is, you know, as I said earlier, chaplains are told we bring our whole selves into the room. And we all do, our political beliefs, our biases, everything, like you said, doesn't matter. We and we do bring them into the room. And yet sometimes the grief in the room, you know, grief, like when I'm when a mother is experiencing that, it could feel so weighty, like there's no space for your grief. But the fact that I was seen in that room, despite her grief being so weighted, was beautiful. And it, I mean, it was it was palatable. It was visible to me, like the weight of her heart surpassing the grief, even though the grief was so heavy, if that makes sense. I came to minister to her, and I was just an honored guest to witness her ministry as she was, and that's not to say we should all just be ministers in our grief, but yes, her heart was so beautiful, and I I just was like, wow, that was that was probably one of the most incredible moments I've had with a with a lost mom. Sacred, right? Sacred, very sacred.

SPEAKER_03 19:21

Yeah, yeah. Um, I know you you and I have talked off air about this, but are there things, even well-intentioned ones, that can unintentionally make these moments harder? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

But what can make it harder is um sometimes when I go into spaces like this, there are guests, family members um that are there and they try to fill in that that sacred quiet air with with words. Amber, sometimes they want to un awkward the moment. They want to they want to fill the the blanks. And sometimes that's not necessary. Now, on the other end of the spectrum, uh I have been in a room where sometimes the spouse or the partner's checked out is different than being silent, is just checked out. They're two different things, right? They're not the same thing. And so I think in those situations when someone checks out because they're uncomfortable with the grief, or when they are filling the space because they're uncomfortable with the grief, those, those can be um, those can be really, really hurtful. I think as Christians, we are trained without fully being aware of the consequences. Silence means that something is wrong. If everyone's quiet for a long time, that means that something is wrong. But I don't agree with that. I believe that there is a weight and purpose and even clarity in silence. And yeah, I think you know, that's really powerful when we just sit with the with the silence and let it be what it is. And on the other end, filling the words, just believe and pray that God will give you a baby when people say things like that. Or everything happens for a reason.

SPEAKER_03 20:59

Or have famous words in this community.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Just just pray, pray for it, claim it, you know. Have faith and God's gonna come through for you. Or I've heard this a lot, and I know it's very well meaning. I've struggled to have kids, it will happen in God's perfect timing. You know, I think it comes from warped theology. Say more about that, please. Yeah, it comes from warped theology because, in essence, it's a personal issue. It is, I am uncomfortable with grief with not getting what I believe should be everyone's. And that's a question that's for you, not necessarily for for God. That's personal, that's not biblical. We are told that God is acquainted with our grief. So, in light of that, we should we shouldn't shut ourselves out from being accustomed with someone's uncomfortable situation. And we just want to avoid it as much as possible. That warped theology of God will never give you more than what you can handle. That's that is nowhere in the Bible. That's nowhere in the Bible.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

So many overwhelmed people in the Bible.

unknown 21:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

In real it like in our present day situations, you know, and we and we are people of faith and we we do rely on God and we are still feeling like this is way more than it is way more than we can handle. And you know, to your point, this never should have happened.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

It never should have happened, and I think that's that's the thing we should rest on. It never should have happened, and that person who is enduring the situation that was never meant for them has to journey through that. And we are witnessing that. We are honored to witness that. And I think if we looked at that, then I think our warp theology would dissipate a bit and we'd be like, wow, this is this is sacred, this is biblical, this is this is it's not meant to be this way. And and can't we can't spiritual bypass it by being like, well, if we just find a silver lining, like sometimes it's we don't need to do that. We don't need to do that, don't do that for them. So that's what I see. That's very detrimental. And I'm like, oh, please, please don't, please don't try to what please don't try to.

SPEAKER_03 23:05

What is biblical is lament. That is, we do see that time and again. And we do see how that shapes who that person becomes and the trust. And like I'm thinking of psalms and how many psalms start with, hello God, where are you? Is this thing on? Right? You know, what are you doing? Yeah, what are you doing? What are you doing? I feel alone. Like, where are you? And by the end of that psalm, it's like they've gotten out all the words, and by the end of the psalm, they're like, you know what, man, this is hard, but I know you're good. And I know that you're never, ever gonna leave me or abandon me in the midst of this. Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

That's true. Yeah, that's true. If we want to be the presence of God, we need to reflect on that. I don't need to prove anything by saying anything to you. I just need to be. I need to just be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:58

That's powerful. So can you share an example of care that you've witnessed or been part of? Um, you know, it maybe you've been on the team or you've just watched it from afar. Care that has been done really, really well for a lost family.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Yeah, there were two times that I can think of. Uh, but one time I went up there with a wonderful young family and it was a stillbirth. And I noticed that the mom was very anxious. And I took the risk to ask her if there was something meaningful that we could do for her that could be done. I mean, spouse was checked out, just didn't know how to process this. And she just looked like a lonely island. And at that moment, she asked for a priest, you know. She I could see her trying to not offend me, and I was like, it's okay. I I can see what what can we do for you? And she asked for a priest. And it was successful, even though she didn't need me because her needs were met. And that is one, another one that's it was this that lost mom that had asked me um how I was doing. I had offered her uh prayer beads. I make these beads. Um, sometimes I pray over them and I give them to families, and I keep them in my pocket and roll them around and just pray that if there's someone that needs them, someone that needs a reminder that they're loved, you know. And I felt that this mom really needed it. And her mother was there and her her spouse, and her mother was documenting everything, she was taking pictures. And okay, for me, I was a little taken aback. Obviously, that's not showing up on my face, but they explained to me that even though this was a painful experience, they wanted to document it. And the mom wanted to do that, and she had my hands hold mom's hands with the beads in it, and you know, I held her hand as as the baby came in the coffin, and this was all documented. And looking back now, what made these moments special wasn't anything that I did, was just that I stayed close enough to their needs so that I could meet them. You know, I think that's that's all that made it special. It wasn't like, wow, April, good work. It was how can I read what you need from me? And just even though maybe I don't do it that way, it it's meaningful to you. It's it's it's important and valuable to you.

SPEAKER_03 26:27

Yeah. Yeah. You asked her a question and you delivered on that promise that you would make it meaningful for her. I love that. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

But you know, it was just being a part of whatever they they need from me. I just need to be aware. I need to be locked in and be aware. If they if they need me to leave, it's still successful because I met their needs. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:51

Yeah. Yeah. What about opportunities? Because this interview crosses, you know, both ministry and medical.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:01

So you can answer this question either way. But where do you see opportunities to grow in the church or in the medical space to support BLOS moms? Is your list long? Yeah, I mean, or it could be here all day. I should have flip-flopped those questions, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:20

No, it's it's a good, it's a it's actually an incredible question. And I remember leaving the Gathering Hope conference with my friend Kate, and we were like, just in the car, like, why can't the church do more? Like, this is incredible. I think the church, in essence, the framework is the church needs to be okay with not being okay. The church needs to be okay. And this goes back to that warp theology. The church needs to be comfortable with these questions. Is God still good when healing doesn't happen? And how do I sit with someone who is in the middle of that question for as long as it takes? And then a whole vast variety of questions could come out of that on ministry opportunities. But I think without those two questions, I fear that there's going to be more fixing than there is witnessing. And when I say witnessing, I mean witnessing someone's journey and being okay with not being the fixer, you know? And while support for lost moms should be the broader justification for ministry and the right thing to do, when they see moms, lost moms, they will eventually see everyone else who's suffering. Because there's so many of them. And that could even come with just practical things. That could come with on holidays that celebrate mothers, they really should think about those that are have suffered loss, just awareness, visibility, you know, sacred visibility. What could that look like in your opinion? Man, what that could look like is having a special meal for lost moms on that Mother's Day weekend. Just a quiet gathering, inviting lost moms, those that have lost in a variety of sense, come and have a meal and let the pastoral team, let the ministry team serve you and and extol you for your courage, not only to come, but your courage to gird your loins every weekend and smile and attend all of the baby showers that you really, really felt like you might have a mental collapse in. I think those would be very, very meaningful. I've been in churches where they don't even mention them when they pass out the flowers on Mother's Day. And I think that causes a lot of pain. I've been there passing out the flowers, and so being the forgotten one is hard. And then how do you process your grief if not in community? I think also offering seminars like what gathering help does, hosting that would be extremely powerful if you can't muster up the manpower. Bring someone else in that can. Free counseling. You know, when someone has a loss, move in. Have a team that provides food, have a team that provides care that doesn't just expire after, I don't know, three weeks, a month.

SPEAKER_03 30:15

Yeah, yeah. Taking care of the physical needs of someone can be a ministry in itself. Not having to think about plates, napkins, food, paper towels, toilet paper, laundry detergent. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 30:32

Yes, small things, big things.

SPEAKER_03 30:34

Those are big things, but in small packages. They really are. And um this this is just like getting personal for me now. Drop it on the doorstep if that is their request.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

Yes. Don't need to don't need to come in there and minister to them. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:52

Unless they ask, you know, like it is okay to ask an either or question. Don't don't give me three options, just two. I love I cannot do I cannot do three, but I can do two. Would you like me to leave this on the porch or do you want me to bring it inside and unpack it for you?

SPEAKER_01 31:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:08

Practical stuff can go such a long way, don't you think?

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Yes, yes, absolutely. And awareness of that, again, awareness of that will bring better awareness and spiritual attunement to others who are struggling in various forms of grief.

SPEAKER_03 31:27

I think you're right. There's again something about this deep loss that makes you, you're right. Like you're so much more cognizant of of other people's needs and the way that they might be suffering that you just didn't have that um that vision before.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

unknown 31:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:43

I imagine that plays into your work a lot.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Yeah. Yeah. That is one of the things that, you know, provoked me to do the beads. Cause sometimes I just put them in their hand and I leave. Sometimes they don't want me there. They just need something tangible to hold that someone loves you and I'm going to get out of the way. And that's okay. That's okay.

SPEAKER_03 32:03

What's one thing you wish people in general and even lost parents themselves better understood about what it's like to walk with families through miscarriage or infant loss as a ministry leader? What do you what's what's that one thing you want people to know about what you are doing?

SPEAKER_01 32:19

I'm gonna sound like a rebel. I love that. But as a clergy member, as a person of the class, um, who has suffered loss, I felt very invisible to my team. And the subject felt like taboo or like a hot potato, like, you know, and I got the sense that I was burdening them and that my grief was kind of soon forgotten, and I felt foolish for still experiencing the loss. So here is what I would say with all the holy thunder that I can muster, don't be afraid. One thing I wish people knew, don't be afraid to challenge the cultural narrative around this grief. Don't be afraid to name the spiritual bypassing that I mentioned earlier that is happening. I'm not gonna say flip all the tables. It can be done prayerfully and gently. We can remind our ministry leaders and other well-meaning saints that it is okay to be in pain. It is okay. And that the gold star of faith is not passed out because we pretended it didn't happen or it still doesn't hurt. Yeah. To all the lost moms that are listening or in families that are grieving, I would say this as I put on my clergy hat. Um, walking with you in your pain is an honor. And witnessing you in your valley of Baca, digging your well, waiting for either presence or promises, your journey deserves to be seen by clergy and by well-meaning people. It deserves to be seen. And that that's all. Full stop on that. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 33:49

I I don't think there's anything rebellious about that other than the fact that it just might be hard for people to hear.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:58

Uh uh, you know, I was talking with my husband the other day, and I said, You realize we are disruptors because what we talk about is so deeply counter-cultural. And this is a disruption in the medical community and the faith community, the society in general, to have a lost mom podcast, right? We're not the only ones doing this, but it's a disruption. And I think disruptors actually get it done though. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

I would call Peyton the work you're doing holy disruption. And a constant reminder, like that that needle to the pole, the true north. And, you know, we are told that Jesus suffered so that all of these things could happen, right? The suffering was part of it. And I'm not saying that all lost moms should look at their thing and say, this is the purpose of no. But I'm saying when you sit in your suffering and you get to journey through that and you get to witness that in someone else, it reminds you, it reminds you that this was never supposed to happen. And that is not something you should ignore, overlook, run away from. And so I think what you're doing is holy, holy sacred disruption work. That means a lot coming from you.

SPEAKER_03 35:13

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

Thank you. I'm on I'm honored. What you said is very, very beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

As we close, if someone listening only changes one thing that they do in the way that they care for lost moms, what would you want it to be?

SPEAKER_01 35:24

You and I are just witnesses to it. Even if you just listen as a witness, inspired by the courage to be in the space with someone else and inspired by their courage to tell you their story, you have done a holy work. Well said. Well said.

SPEAKER_03 35:41

April, if people want to connect with you after the podcast, how can they do that?

SPEAKER_01 35:46

You can email me. Um, I don't know if my email will be available, but you know. Can you make it available? Sure. Yeah. People are welcome to email me, welcome to message me on Instagram. Uh, I am not a good Facebook checker. So it's a little out of my um generation. So I'm struggling to like check messages. I feel really bad that people send a lot of messages on Facebook, and I'm like so sorry. I get a little overwhelmed with Facebook. I don't know why.

SPEAKER_03 36:12

We'll just put an email. It'll be the easiest way for people to do that.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

Yes. You can email me if you have questions or concerns or anything. Ave questions, happy to journey with you. Thank you so much for today.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Thank you. Thank you for being a part of this conversation. At Gathering Hope, we believe that caring well for lost moms goes beyond words. It looks like presence, understanding, and a willingness to learn how to show up in meaningful ways. Through our Beyond Words workshop, we continue to equip individuals, ministries, and healthcare professionals to support grieving mothers with compassion and care. If something for this conversation stayed with you, we'd love for you to take a next step. You can share this episode with someone in your life who wants to care well. Follow along with Gathering Hope on Instagram, Facebook, or TikTok, or visit gatheringhope.org to learn more about our Beyond Words workshop and how we can bring it to your community. And as always, whether you're a lost mom or someone who cares about lost moms, we're so grateful you're here.