Beyond Words with Missy Thomas

What does it mean to remember a life that was far too short?

In this episode of The Sucky Sisterhood Podcast, Peyton sits down with Missy Thomas, Executive Director of Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep, a nonprofit that provides remembrance photography for families experiencing the loss of a baby.

Missy is also a close friend of Peyton’s, and it was through the loss of Peyton’s son that she first experienced the impact of remembrance photography, a moment that deeply shaped the path that led her into this work.

Together, they talk about:

• The power of remembrance photography and why it matters
• What it looks like to enter into moments of deep grief
• How small moments can become lasting memories for families

Missy shares how this work became deeply personal and how it has grown into a calling to serve families in some of their most difficult moments. She offers insight into what it means to sit with grief, support parents as they say goodbye, and create space for them to parent their baby in the time they have.

This conversation is a powerful reminder that every baby matters, every story matters, and that being seen and remembered can make a lasting difference.

🔗 Connect with Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep

Instagram: @nowilaymedowntosleep
Facebook: Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep
Website: www.nowilaymedowntosleep.org

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the Sucky Sisterhood Podcast by Gathering Hope. I'm Peyton Lauderdale, host of the podcast and co-founder of Gathering Hope. Alongside Carol Vantyne, our co-founder and producer of this podcast, we're so glad you're here. This season is centered around the work we do through our Beyond Words workshop, where we equip healthcare professionals, ministry leaders, and others in the community to better support women who've experienced miscarriage, stillbirth, or infant loss. Over time, we realize that while there are many conversations about how to care for lost moms, there are far fewer that acknowledge the experience of those providing that care. One of our deepest hopes for this season is to help bridge that gap. In each episode, we're sitting down with people who walk closely with lost moms in some of their hardest moments. From medical professionals to counselors to ministry leaders, we're creating space for honest conversations about what that compassionate care can really look like. For some of our guests, this work is not only professional, but it's personal. And we want to acknowledge and honor that too. Each of these conversations has been a learning opportunity for us. They've reminded us of the importance of staying curious and listening well, and our hope is to bring understanding, perspective, and a more human side to these roles. Before we dive in, I want to take a moment to say this. We've come to deeply appreciate the weight that people in these roles carry. They're often present in moments that are incredibly tender and devastating, and that's not something that's always seen or acknowledged. So this season we want to be a space where people who walk alongside lost moms are honored too. Whether you're a lost mom yourself or someone who cares about lost moms, we're really glad you're here.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

One mom shared with us.

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Moments like that are why these conversations matter. Behind every role, every title, every interaction, there's a real person walking through something incredibly vulnerable. And today we're going to talk about what it looks like to step into those moments with care.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Today, Peyton is joined by Missy Thomas, the executive director of Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep, an organization that provides remembrance photography for families experiencing infant loss. Her work is deeply personal, shaped by the loss of Peyton's son, James, which led her to understand the lasting impact these images can have for grieving families. In this conversation, they talk about the role remembrance plays in honoring a baby's life and the lasting impact it can have on a family.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Missy, I am so delighted to have you on this episode of the Sucky Sisterhood Podcast. Everyone should know Missy is one of my dearest friends, and we have walked through a lot together. But Missy, would you share a little bit about who you are, what you do? And then I was kind of nervous to ask this question, but I think it's really important for people to know what drew you into the work that you're doing now.

SPEAKER_03 3:39

Yeah. So happy to be here. I'm so excited to get to experience this with you in real time. Yeah. So I'm the executive director, not I lay me down to sleep. We're a nonprofit that uh specializes in, we call it remembrance photography for families that are experiencing the loss of a baby. Um, that can be stillbirth, you know, anything up through Nikki stay that doesn't end the way that you want it to, things like that. What drew me to this work? So I had heard of us for a lot of years through a really bizarre roundabout way, because I bought a sewing machine is the real story of the first time I heard of us. I actually know this. So okay, we're settling in now. So I bought a sewing machine, a fancy one, and with that came some classes. So I took the classes to learn how to use the fancy sewing machine. And when I did, the lady I was taking the classes from had some articles pinned up on her courtboard or whatever it was in her office. And one of them was about um a local to me here in Omaha nonprofit that made like little infant burial gowns out of wedding dresses and things like that. And I was like, oh, that is like the sweetest thing I have ever heard of in my entire life. Um, and I remembered the name and I Googled it later. And this would have been 2005, maybe. Okay, 2006 at most. Um, so and we were founded in 2005, so way way back. Wow, okay. But I went to the website of this local nonprofit, which I don't think exists anymore, but on their page, they had resources listed and now I lay me down to sleep was listed as a resource. And for some reason I clicked on it because I was just curious what's out there in the world. And through clicking on that, learned a little bit about us. I had never heard of us. And I don't, I think probably the thing that initially drew me in to even consider it was I'd always known that my grandma had a stillbirth and that had been talked about. Um, I now know how uncommon that would be. Um, but I was like, oh, that's really interesting. So like it kind of spiraled. Um, but at the time, um, I didn't think there were any roles for people that were not photographers. So I just kind of foddered away as that's a really cool thing. I'm glad they have that for people. Um, and then every it seems like every couple of years I would just take a peek. For some reason it would organically come up. And then um, you and I obviously have been friends for a long time. I actually don't know what year we met, but it was probably in that like 2000 Yeah, not too long ago. Yeah, yeah, somewhere in there. Anyway, so several years later, you were pregnant with James in 2014, 2013 or 14. And your mom and I are friends, and you and I are friends, and we were super excited about this baby coming. And I remember, and I will say it till the end of my days, I knew it was a boy the whole time. And not everybody wanted to listen to that, but I knew it. I just knew it. So we were excited for him to come, even though we didn't know it was a him. And I remember, you know, when you went into labor, your mom was with you there in Texas, and she was texting me updates like, I think this is the real thing, and like, here's where we're at, and here's, you know, where labor is and everything. And um, so I went to bed that night thinking I'm gonna wake up and there's gonna be a baby, and I'm gonna know, but I know it's that boy, I know that it is, but I'm gonna get that, you know, information and all of that. But of course, we know that's not what happened. Got some texts from your mom, gosh, probably like three in the morning. Um, I saw them in the middle of the night when I um got up to his restroom, I think. Um, we kind of know what happened there. And that kind of brought it all back to the forefront. And I remember that, not like that 3 a.m. moment, but like that losing James um was a very much like a one of those moments where there's a before and there's an after, you know? And even though he wasn't my baby, it was like it opened, it opened a door or a curtain. Like you can't, you can't see anything. Like you've you've shown the wizard behind the curtain and yeah, you can't unsee it now, you know, and you're like, oh my God, babies die. Like this can just happen. Like this is the most devastating thing you can ever imagine. And it just happens to people that don't deserve it, you know? And you don't really, or I didn't, I didn't really think about it up until then, you know. Like, of course I knew it, but you just don't realize the impact of it. So, anyway, after he passed, I remember Dave was getting ready to deploy my husband. So it was kind of this timing thing. I got down there to Fort Worth as fast as I could, but I think it was like Tuesday before I got there, maybe. So I never got to meet him.

unknown 7:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:44

Um I never saw him in person. Um, and I had to get back before the funeral. So it was just this, again, a timing thing. But you had those awesome photos of him, you know. So I saw what he looked like very early on. And so, like, because of that, like I know what his ears look like, you know, because he totally had your ears. Um hundred percent. Yeah. 100%. And his hairline, he had like he had Justin's forehead, you know, like it's just crazy to see all that.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

My only baby with brown hair.

SPEAKER_03 8:10

Yes, yes. So wild because the girls were so blonde, not just like a little bit blonde, but like blonde, blonde. Yes. So I got to see all those things, you know, and I would never have seen them otherwise, you know. Or I probably could have seen cell phone photos, you know, it's not that that didn't exist. Um, but they exist, those professional photos exist in a very different capacity. And um, so we went on living life to as much as we could in our shell-shock state for a long time. And um, you know, as an as an outsider looking into someone else's pain like we were at yours, you just want to do something, you know, like you just want to take it. You know, you can't take it away. You know, you can't give them their baby. So you just in this, like, what do I even do here? And so I remember it was his first birthday was rolling around the following year in 2015. Myself and several other of our friends were like, What do we want to do? You know, we should do something to mark this and like something meaningful, but not like we're gonna have a party with balloons, but you know, like what do we do? And one of the things that stuck out to me, um, because not to lay me down to sleep had come up kind of in the back of my mind a few times over the course of that year. I was like, I wonder what's up with that, you know? Yeah. And because at that point, I would say I was a hobbyist photographer. Honestly, thanks to you, because you and I took like this photo class around the same time. Wonderful. Way back then, right? And kind of was the foundation for everything I now know, which is a lot. So I kind of looked into the website again and saw at that time, um, and I don't know if it was always the case and I didn't see it or if it wasn't the case, but at that point there were options for non-photographers because I did not think that my photography skills were nearly good enough to do that side of the work. So I was like, oh, there are other ways to get involved. So I started reading through it. Um, and at that time we lived in the Washington, DC area. So it's a very large network of volunteers and people and all the things. Um, and I saw that there were those other options on his first birthday. I applied to be um what we call a dispatcher. Uh, just thinking like, oh, this is this isn't this is not a tangible gift. I but it's it's just it's something because I'm thinking of him.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

It was one of the most meaningful that day when people were sharing some of the things that was I didn't it didn't register fully with me, but one of I just knew like this, this is this is very, very meaningful. I just I had that sense at the time. I'm glad.

SPEAKER_03 10:23

I'm glad so I started doing that, and before long I was asked to be dispatch coordinator, which is a volunteer position. So I kind of kind of organized the dispatchers and we overhauled dispatch training and did all of that because living in DC, the dispatch role is quite busy. Okay, and I'll never forget my very first call was for a baby boy named James. And I will always remember that. And that was like the wildest thing, and I remember just being blown away by it, you know. And I remember the photographer that ended up taking that call because that was also her first call ever. She and I are still friends, so we still talk and everything. She lives in Michigan, but she lived near to me in the DC area when we were there. Did that kind of volunteer leadership for a while. And fast forward to 2019, we were back here in Omaha, and I don't remember, I want to say there was a staff position open, but it wasn't, it was like an admin position. And I was like, oh, maybe I could that give me something to do. You know, Dave's still deploying a lot and things like that. I was like, this is an organization obviously I volunteer heavily for and things like that. Um, so I reached out to who our CEO was then and was like, hey, you know, is this a remote position or do you know, is it a Denver, because we're based in Denver, is it a Denver only thing? And just to get some more info. And she said, Well, unfortunately it's Denver only, but I have an idea. And so it kind of came about that because my role in the organization up until then had been communicating with hospitals like all the time, constantly back and forth. Um, we wanted to develop some sort of program to educate providers in that space and work with them and possibly train them. And we just didn't know what it would look like. Yeah. So I came on essentially to develop what we now call our medical affiliate program, which to date I think we've had, I don't even say, I'm not even sure. I wanted to say we have like a little over 2,000 active medical affiliates, but I think around five to six thousand have signed up for the training. Um, and a couple of thousand of those are active. They're in every state, every Canadian province, they're in 20 or 22, I can't remember which now, foreign countries. It's wild, like it really took off. And I think part of that, not that it was a fortunate turn of events, but um, I spent most of 2019 developing it. And at the start of 2020, it was pretty much ready to launch, but we were gonna like pilot it in a couple hospitals just to see how it went, you know, make sure like the kings were worked out. And then COVID. And it was actually, I was driving home from your brother Jamie's wedding in Kansas City when um I had a conference call with the chairman of our board and our CEO, and we were like, maybe now's the time to launch it. Wow, suddenly everything is shutting down, you know? And so there was a conversation like, how how ready is it? You know, like yeah, we knew it was pretty much done, but like, can it handle the capacity? Like, is it set up such that if we had 200 people in our wildest streams, 200 people come in and take this class? What would that look like? You know, could we handle it? Could we do it? And I was like, Yeah, I mean, I think so. It's set up to it's pretty self-running, you know, at this point. I was like, the launch at this point, like we're uh we got accredited for CEUs and everything. I was like, that part's done. It's just a marketing piece at this point, you know. Right. So that was a Sunday. He got married on Saturday, Sunday. I was driving home. We launched it the next day. And I mean, I can't even there was one day now, it was early on, maybe just a week or two into it. There was one day alone we had like 600 applicants. Amazing. And I just because we have to manually approve. And that's how I remember because I just all day just went through. It was just floored. Couldn't, and every little bit I'd be like, oh my gosh, guys, there was another 40. And I do those and I go back and look, I'm like, there's another 60. Like, what is happening? You know? I mean, they were applying as fast as I could get it out there. So anyway, got that launched. We all know how COVID went for everybody. It ended up um being a very timely option to offer to providers in um a time where we couldn't always be there. That was very regionally independent as well, because there were areas that nobody went into hospitals, you know. Here in Omaha, we weren't shut out of any of them. Um, I think I served every hospital in town at some point between 2020 and 2021. There were times, I mean, we certainly had restrictions, um, but they prioritized like the bereavement care team, as they would call it, as being there were times when I was in a room with a mom and her baby and the dad wasn't in there, you know.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Because that would like exceed the amount of people that could be in a room.

SPEAKER_03 14:35

And I'm like, we we gotta, we can fix this, right? Like, because I don't feel right being there if dad can't be there. Um, and there were a lot of nurses doing a lot of heroic things. They were sneaking like siblings up backstairwells and really out there doing the Lord's work to get like everybody where they needed to be at the right time.

SPEAKER_04 14:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 14:50

Um, so that happened. That at the time my title was medical program manager. Um, at a certain point, I moved into director of programs. So I kind of started overseeing all programs, medical and volunteer. And then from there I was senior director of operations because that was a role that they identified as needing. Um so I kind of took over operations. And then eventually, after our prior CEO left, I was interim for a while as like a hey, you know, we need someone right now. Yeah. And eventually became permanent.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

And here I am. The the feelings that I have hearing that, I knew most of it, but just hearing you tell it linear linearly like that. Uh like because we have a personal relationship, like anybody else on the show, I'd be like, wow, that's amazing. Congratulations. And I feel that way. Yeah. But also like the sense of pride that I have in you as my friend, as James's mom, like that's just it's emotional.

SPEAKER_03 15:46

I get to talk about him all the time when I travel for conferences and things. And so all of our presentations kind of have an intro, like, here's who I am and here's why I'm here. And I show his picture everywhere. I'm like, this is why I'm here.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

For those who don't know, I had a birth photographer as part of just my labor plan. And um, having those photos has meant the world to me. And to know that, you know, you picked up on that and like carried it to the next level is like it's so humbling, but also so it's so incredible at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. What is it like for you to work with lost moms? Like when you, because I know that you have served in so many roles, including as a photographer. So can you kind of walk us through what it looks like when you show up to the hospital? What it does it look like to be with families?

SPEAKER_03 16:34

Yeah. So um, I did become a photographer for us in somewhere in that 2019, 2020 range. I finally got the confidence. Even working for us, I was still scared, like, oh, what if they don't like me? Um, so when I did my application photos, I sent them to someone and I made them send them anonymously to a third person who then sent them into the application because I didn't want anyone. Well, I knew the whole application committee. I knew they knew me. And I was like, I don't want to be accepted because they're like, oh, it's Miss Yo. Yeah. She'll be fine, it'll be fine.

unknown 17:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:05

I just wanted them to accept me based on narrows alone and not because they knew me or knew who I was or what I was doing. And so I did get accepted. And um right now I'm sitting in exactly 200 sessions since that time. I know that because it's a nice round number. Not that I call anything in this work nice, but yeah, it's just kind of sitting right there for now. And I'm like, I like that. I like that that nice number. But anyway, when I serve a family, from our perspective, it's a call comes in usually from a nurse. If you hear me say nurse, I'm kind of meaning that generically, but 97% of the time that call comes from a nurse, either labor and delivery or NICU. It comes to our dispatcher locally and she'll get some basic info. She puts it all out there to all the local volunteers. We have a text thread. We don't talk any, you know, HIPAA, non-compliant things, but it's just kind of it's like, hey, we have a 32-week loss at Bergen. Baby, you know, mom is in labor, she's eight centimeters. So we think baby will be here in the next few hours. They're hoping for pictures tonight, kind of thing. Um, and we all kind of look at our schedules and see what works, what doesn't. Once I've decided that I'm going to take the session for, you know, whatever, for whatever reason, I go through the logistics of it. And the logistics, and I can get to this in a minute, the logistics are sometimes what saves us in those rooms. Okay. But I kind of go through logistics. Like, is my camera battery charged? I have two batteries. One's always plugged in on the wall right behind me right now. So the minute I know I'm going to take it, I take that fully charged one out, pop my other one in so that I go with two fully charged ones. I once had a really terrifying scenario with some memory cards. So I carry like 16 memory cards with me.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

I was about to say like seven or eight, but yeah, 16.

SPEAKER_03 18:37

Oh, I had like four fail right in a row. Those like the buckets of sweat, yeah, I can't even tell you how that was. Um, but I I that fifth one worked, and that's all that mattered. So yeah, we're well prepared. I almost even call it a go bag. You know, it's specifically my nominates bag. It's got my camera in it all times, the couple lenses that I use, um, the things I carry with me. Um, so I get all those things together. I make sure that I have a consent form. I have a brochure, I have all the things ready to go. Um, and then um, I don't usually talk to the nurse before I go. I know the nurse's name and I know, you know, or if there's going to be a shift change, I kind of know when that is. They're all the same time around here anyway. Um, but when I get to the hospital, my first order business is to talk to that nurse. That nurse has been with mom that whole time. She's like the point of contact. And no offense to any other professionals working with the mom, but the nurse is who you need to talk to. I like to get kind of a read of the room before going in from her. I always say, I say this to new people all the time. I've never walked into the same room twice. Never. You can't possibly predict what you're going to walk into. There's too many factors. There's too many potential, you know, other family members. There's, depending on the circumstance, do they know it was coming? Is it a surprise? Is it, you know, earlier gestation, is it a later gestation? Are there siblings? Are there not? You know, or mom and dad together, are they not? Are they, are they teenagers? You know, are they older? It was this an IVF, like just there's so many scenarios that you can't possibly predict it. So I just get like the basics from the nurse, knowing that no matter what she tells me, it's going to be about reading the room when you get in there. Um and then she'll take me in, introduce me to the family, and I go about my business. Um, and a lot of people who talk about volunteering with us, what we hear a lot is, oh, I could never do that. Yeah. Like, how could how can you do that? Like, they don't mean it negatively. It's just like, I can't, in my wildest dreams, imagine walking into that room at that moment and doing that. Like, how do you even function? And we tell them, and it is very true, um, to a certain extent, not that you lose your humanness, but you go into photographer mode um because you are very focused on you know your aperture and the lens that you're using. And like it's still you still have to do the math of a good photo. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

And it's probably dark in there. And yeah, like you're working in different conditions than a normal photographer.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

Sometimes it's the middle of the night. You just don't know what you're, you know, working with. But you really you still have to do the math. You still have to do the photography part of it. Even that said, that's probably like 10% of the skills you need to do that. The other 90% is reading the broom, honestly.

unknown 21:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:07

And part of that comes with practice. I found through the years that you just have to confront it head on. You know, you can't tap dance around what's going on. You can't, you know, call it something that it's not, you know. So we're just very like, I'm sorry to meet you under these circumstances. You know, there's no, oh, how are you doing today? We know how they're doing today. Yeah, you know, like don't do that crap. But just confront it and go about your business. Let them know that what you're here to do. And what I found is a lot of parents didn't know this service existed until two hours ago. That's so they certainly don't have, yeah, they certainly don't have any idea of what kind of photos they want. They're looking to me to do that, you know. So we are very like, here's what I'm gonna do, you know. Let me know if any of this makes you uncomfortable. Let me know if you have any ideas. But we try to walk them through as many things as possible so that they don't have to think about those things. So everybody has their own little routine. For me, it depends on where. Baby is when I walk into the room. If mom's holding the baby, I kind of start in one direction and move toward a different one. If the baby is in a bassinet or a cooling unit of some sort in the room, I kind of have a different approach that I move through. But just being human and humanizing it all as you go through it. Yeah. And just being there. And we tell our volunteers, like it's okay to cry, you know. Like, I mean, if you're gonna really lose it, you might want to step out for a minute. But like I've cried my way through, I mean, probably 70% of the sessions I've done, you know, because we are human and that's okay. And I've never thrown all the feedback I've ever gotten through the organization, I've never heard anyone say, like, oh, that was so distasteful. My photographer was crying in the session, you know.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

No, it makes sense. But I do hear parents saying, Yeah, it makes the baby human. Like this is actually worth crying about because it is that sad and it is very real.

SPEAKER_03 22:50

Yeah. Um, and that's what we hear is like it meant so much to me to see that. Like, wow, you know, like, okay, okay. And, you know, we're not the experts on their baby, we're not the experts on them, we're not the experts on the medical care, we're not, we're the experts on the photography. But being there in that moment where a lot of people don't get to be there. A lot of people are there, you know, well afterward or, you know, ahead of time. But being there in that moment in that hospital room, we get a little bit of a unique kind of space in that we have, I wouldn't say direct patient care because we're not providers, but we have that direct contact. Um, so we are looked to to some extent as help me, you know, I don't know what to do here, kind of thing. So that's some of my favorite part of the work, honestly, is giving that family permission to do what they want to do. And that's nothing crazy, but plenty of times I've been in those rooms and you know, I have mom hold the baby for a photo, and she's like, Is it okay if I hold him? And I'm like, he's your baby, you know? And you can tell, like that, the switch flips, you know.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

Yeah. It's like giving her that one little push of permission that she Right.

SPEAKER_03 23:54

And that's all she needed. You know, she doesn't, she doesn't even, well, I can't say everybody, but like most of them, they don't have the capacity even to think logically or critically about the situation. They just need someone to say, yes, do this or no, don't do this, you know? Yeah. So to kind of invite them into that um parenting, you know, it's not parenting their baby the way that they wanted to, but it's still parenting them to, you know, help me dress the baby. And they're not comfortable with it a lot of the times because they don't know how to handle um a baby that's gone, you know. Um, some of them don't know how to handle a baby that we're gonna do. They're brand new parents. Right, right, exactly. So just roping them in on those things, you know, and I do that with parents, but I also try to do it if there's extended family members or siblings. Siblings love to hold the light, you know. So do grandpas. Grandpas, like holding the light is like just like they've been training for this their whole life, kind of thing, you know. And I think grandparents are always really hard for me, especially grandpas for whatever reason. Soft spot for them, I guess. But um, giving them a job is one of the best things you can do for them in those moments. And kids, they think my light is like a lightsaber. So I usually give them a little speech, like, okay, it's not a real lightsaber. And you don't want to look directly into it because it's very um, but they don't know what to do either, you know, like their whole world is their parents and they're watching them fall apart. And so they're just as lost as everybody else, you know?

SPEAKER_02 25:11

Yeah. I recently talked to Olivia about kind of what she experienced, you know, when she was five. And she she was like, I would come into the house after school and just like no, like the era is different in here. Like today is today is different, and it starts in the hospital. Yeah, you know? And so giving them that, giving them a memory in a place where they're not going to get to build memories for the rest of their life. What a gift to them.

SPEAKER_03 25:39

And that's my favorite part of it. I mean, I'm there for the photos, obviously, but to be able to give them that gift is like a different level, you know? And um, there's a line I use with one of our staff members who's also a volunteer. I say it to her all the time, and it's kind of our thing is you never regret a session, you know. You may like we're humans. So sometimes when there's a call, you're like, oh, I was gonna, I was gonna go and like finally run these errands this evening. Oh, I really need to get, you know, and it's it's humbling work. So it doesn't take long for you to be put in your place a little bit. You're like, oh, okay, that's small potatoes compared to what this mom here on the other side of town is going through, and dad or everybody. So you may be, you might feel slightly put out every once in a while, or you know, you're like, I really, I just I've got this headache, or you've got something, you know, everybody's got something going on. But I've never walked out of the session not being like unbelievably grateful for having been there. You know, it's hard to describe unless you've been there. It's more than just like, I'm glad I could be there. No, it was like like the weight of being trusted to meet that baby when you might be able to count on one hand the number of people that did, you know. Yes. And that'll never change that 80 years from now, that'll still be true. Yeah. So it's it's a lot.

unknown 26:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

You mentioned the humanity many times. Talk to us about the humanity of photographers or people who work for Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep. What is it as lost parents? We're so in the thick of things, right? We we're not necessarily like, How are you? Although I bet you have been asked that question.

SPEAKER_03 27:08

Um, actually, I don't know if I have.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

Interesting. I'm sure some of us have.

SPEAKER_03 27:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:12

I'm sure some of us have. But but think like let us in to the to your side of the room. Like, what is it like for you as the photographer or even someone, because I know you guys do retouching, but but really specifically interacting, being in the room. What is it like for you? And even as far as like when you go home, what does that look like?

SPEAKER_03 27:33

It's yeah, I just keep coming back to that humanity part of it and how much of an honor it is, you know, always to be in those moments too. I mean, like I said, there is, there's the math, you know, there's still like I still have to dress this baby, you know. Not that the nurses aren't helpful if we want help doing those. Not all photographers are comfortable handling and dressing a baby. Um, it's completely up to us and our individual comfort levels. But it's always just such like, I can't believe I get to do this, you know. As awful as it is, it's like, I can't believe I get to do this. Like, how how lucky am I to have a skill set that is needed in this way and to have the sort of constitution of someone that can do this work because not everybody can, and that's okay. But like the world needs people that can handle these situations because those people need us, you know? Yeah. So it comes back to that a lot. And usually being in the room is the hardest part of it, but the retouching aspect of it can also be extremely emotional because we might spend 45 minutes to an hour in the room, uh, maybe a little bit longer if there's like a lot of extended family or things like that. But I might spend 15 hours retouching those photos, you know, and I'm working on like toe by toe, you know, just making sure it looks just right, you know. And some babies need a lot of retouching and some don't need much at all. So it varies as to how much time you spend with them. But you know, I stare at that baby's face for so many hours that you don't forget all those faces, you know. So it's easy if I were to go look at a list of babies, I could instantly, I guarantee you, pull up like at least one image in my head of that baby and remember something about being there with them, you know, because you do spend so much time with him afterward. And sometimes that's when the reality of it hits you, okay. If that makes sense. Like it's not not lost to the reality of it when you're in the room, but it's later when you're looking at the photos. And sometimes when you're in the room, you see, you see a mom that loves her baby, you know, and that's what you're seeing. And then sometimes when you're editing the photos, you can see how broken she is. And you don't necessarily see that. I mean, you can see that, you know, ahead of time, but because you're staring at the photos for so long, you start to notice all the other things, you know. Um, and there's a there's a there's a look about moms. And I don't know how to describe it, you know, and probably dads too. I I say moms a lot, but I mean parents. Like I think I've thought for a long time that I can look at pictures of you in the past anywhere between I don't know, 2012 to 2016, we'll say. Yeah. And I can tell you without knowing the date, whether it was before or after, because something's different, you know what I mean. You can't describe it. But like the reality of a lot of that stuff hits you later. We do have access to chaplain service. All volunteers do, all staff members do. Um so if we're having an extra bad time with a session or a hard time processing it or things like that, then um, we can certainly utilize those resources. We have a private Facebook group for all volunteers. Sometimes there's a lot of chat in there, like, hey, is anybody up? You know, I just had a really tough session. Um anybody wants to chat, let me know, give me a call, things like that. So they're really they lean on each other a lot because it's very niche work. And sometimes you just need the other people that do this work to like it's hard to get somebody else to understand it. But um, yeah, the the being in the room is the acute emotional aspect of it, but it doesn't end there. It doesn't end for a while because of the work you do afterward.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

I know you have a fun little, fun little tradition. Will you share that with people? You'll always post a picture of your inside your car.

SPEAKER_03 30:55

Yeah, I do. I'll post a picture on Instagram usually when I take a session. And I don't I don't know why it is. For me, I tend to do them in my car. And a lot of times I'm showing like the clock because sometimes it's 1 a.m. And that's not expected of volunteers. That's just I'm an ideal, so I don't mind doing a late session, you know. But it's kind of, you know, I obviously I don't give identifying information. I don't tag the hospital. We can't do any of that. But it's my way of like putting that out there into the world. Like, hey, I met a baby today and he was awesome. And you guys should really send some love to this unnamed baby that I can't tell you about. Um, but he was really great and his parents were really great. And, you know, also all of you remember that like there's things going on that are so much worse than what you're experiencing right now, you know, that like just take a second. You know, I know the kids, they might be noisy today, and like your teenager might be doing what teenagers do and you know, like really, really challenging you to your last, last brain cell. But there's a reality that like a lot of people don't see behind that curtain. And just remember that, remember that today, you know, hug your kids because sometimes the world needs to be told those things. And I'm a big, I mean, I'm a firm believer that this topic in general, it needs to be talked about, you know. Most of my friends are past that stage of having babies, and most of my friends know what I do, but not everybody does. Somebody is going to know that it's okay to talk about their baby someday because they saw someone else talking about a baby.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

Amen. And to that, that's the whole reason why we're here. So yeah, uh just giving people that like that, like even just that mom in the room, but the rest of the world to know that it is okay. This is something that happens. And the more silent we are about it, the more painful it becomes. And the more open and transparent we are about it, it doesn't solve the problem, but being alone and in pain is so much worse.

SPEAKER_03 32:43

Yeah. And I found people want to talk about it, even if you're not the parents, because you start talking, and I'm sure you've experienced this all the time. You start talking about this to somebody, like, oh, what do you do? You know, and the conversation gets to where it gets, and they're like, Oh my gosh, no one has ever said to me, like, I have never known anybody that has lost a baby.

SPEAKER_02 33:00

Never.

SPEAKER_03 33:00

No one's ever, ever said that, you know? Yeah. Not the receptionist, the physical therapist's office, not, you know, the nurse at the endocrinologist's office for my daughter that asked. Like, no one has said, Oh, I've never known anybody. Everybody. It's like, oh, my aunt lost a full-time baby. Yeah, you know, when I was little, or my grandma lost a baby, or my aunt lost a baby, or my mom lost a baby before I was born, or I lost a baby, or everybody knows somebody that's lost a baby.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 33:28

And they're once they know what you do, they're very open to talking about. So, like, people want to have these conversations. It's just getting over that hump of is it okay to have them? I don't know, you know? Yeah. Or it's my safe space to do it.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Yeah. As you think about all the families that you've served and as long as you've been doing this now, what has been the most surprising to you, either about the work that you're doing or about yourself?

SPEAKER_03 33:50

I think maybe, maybe the most surprising thing about it, um, even though it makes logical sense, the most surprising thing is that I've never walked into the same room voice. I've had very similar situations, but like every story is so very unique and incomparable. You know, you can't compare families and you can't, you know, mom shouldn't be comparing grief. We shouldn't be comparing, you know, what we experience either. But sometimes as staff members, we get so caught up in the work that we do, we think we've seen it all. Like you're not gonna bring anything to me that I haven't seen. And the minute you say that, it's just when somebody's like, oh, hold my beer.

SPEAKER_02 34:28

Yeah, don't you know, don't like don't say there's gotta be like some you guys probably have a list of like don't say this, don't say that, and don't do this.

SPEAKER_03 34:36

And if we even like look like we're starting to veer toward that way, some other staff might be like, no, no, no, no, we are not, not today. No, it is a Friday. We're going into the weekend, yes, not doing this. But it's just, it's just like how how different every scenario is, you know. And then generically, I mean, it's it's not surprising to me anymore because I'm in this space, but early on, it's surprising as to like how needed the work is and how prevalent and the loss is, you know. And I see that when I tell people, people like, oh, you know, tell us about and like, oh, we've, you know, in our years of existence, we served over 80,000 families and just the lid blows off of it, you know, like that's 80,000 babies that aren't here, you know. And, you know, four to five thousand of those were just in the last year alone. And those are just the ones we photographed. So like this is happening everywhere. You don't know it, you know. So those things do surprise other people. I'm I'm in it now, so I know it happens, you know. And that all goes back to, I mean, obviously it's evolved, but it goes back to James, that defining moment of like up until then you're just young and naive and like good things happen to good people. And I I mean, I know that that's not, you know, I had plenty of, you know, less than ideal experiences up until then, but that's the one that you're just like, wait a minute, you know, like I it's hard to describe how it felt to like, I just I've stared at a wall for like weeks, probably just in shock as to like how different, you know, the before and after that was. It just we all didn't imagine. Yeah. And I remember too, like right around that same time, another friend of ours is diagnosed with cancer. And so she's going through certain, and I was just like, what is the world? You know, like what even babies don't die? Like babies aren't supposed to die. That's not how it's supposed to happen. It's not in if it can happen to her, it could happen to any of us, you know.

SPEAKER_04 36:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:22

Um, and young, healthy people aren't supposed to get cancer. And like, what what is even happening in the world right now? You know, it's just such a defining time in my life. But yeah, it's, you know, I'm past that stage a little bit now, but it still will always be that moment where like everything changed, you know.

SPEAKER_02 36:38

Um everything did change. And not just, I think that is the the whole point of this season is that it didn't just change for me and it didn't just change for Justin, but it changed for so many people who walked along that path with us, whether they knew us or friends, family, it certainly life changed for them. But but we really want to talk about in this season all the people that touch lost moms' lives, whether they know them or not, you know, the nurses, the doctors, and and we really want to take a look at the other side of the coin. And now that a little time has passed, I I could not have done this season 10 years ago. There's no way. But just reflecting as we get to know more care providers, more ministry professionals, you know, just getting to hear little snippets, I'm like, there, there's a bigger story to tell here because it truly does affect people that it that you come in contact with. Are there things, even well-intentioned ones that you've either witnessed or, you know, that you've you've been around a lot of lost families, even well-intentioned stuff can go sideways. So, what are some of those things that you've seen or heard that unintentionally make these moments even harder?

SPEAKER_03 37:50

I actually was talking to you about this very recently. Um, but if your sentence starts with at least, just stop there. There's nothing that's gonna come after that that's going to be helpful. There's no at least. Even if, even if like you really feel like that makes sense, maybe it will to them five or 10 years from now. It's not going to make sense right now. I just said it would have taken me. 10 years ago I couldn't have done this. Right. Yes. So at least, you know, it was just, you know, at least it wasn't viable, you know. At least, you know, at least it was, at least it was another boy. It wasn't the girl you always wanted. You know, at least, at least it was only 25 weeks, at least it was only 38 weeks. At least, you know, at least you got to carry the baby full term, you know, and you got to know them for that long. It at least you can have other children. Dear God, do not say that one, you know. You don't know that that's even true, first of all. But like that's not, it's not what people need to hear it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

Never. It's never where it's like.

SPEAKER_03 38:43

There's no at least statement that's going to help, you know. It's just about acknowledging it, you know. Um, and I think acknowledgement's kind of the greatest gift you can give them in that moment, you know?

SPEAKER_02 38:55

It is.

SPEAKER_03 38:56

Whether it's a photo, whether it's calling the baby by name, if it's a I'm thinking of your baby today, if it's whatever, just acknowledgement. And I know it feels uncomfortable. I get it from having been on the other side that you don't want to always bring it up because you're like, uh, they they look like they're having a great day. I don't want to remind them. Um, but what I've learned is no lost parent is standing there not thinking about it ever. You know, like their baby, maybe, you know, 15 years from now, they're not thinking about literally the second, but that baby is right behind the thought they're thinking about. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

I almost did the exact same action with my head. Like it's like it's like right here.

SPEAKER_03 39:29

Yeah. Yeah. Like it's just, it's never far. So you're not going to. I used to struggle to say this as not a lost mom myself. Like I can't speak for other moms, but I'm just saying that I've seen enough that I feel very confident in these things. Just talk about it because that's going to mean a lot to her or him to hear those things and to hear that you're thinking of their baby. And you're not reminding them of something they're not talking about or thinking about. You're not doing any of those things. One of their greatest fears is that everyone will forget their baby, you know. So just doing something that makes it known that you didn't forget their baby means everything, you know. Again, I get that desire to, you know, fix it and try to give them like, hey, here's a silver line. But, you know, I think grief doesn't need a solution. It needs a companion.

SPEAKER_02 40:13

So good, Missy.

SPEAKER_03 40:14

You know, like it just sit with it. As uncomfortable it is for you, don't worry about yourself. Like you'll be all right. Just sit with it. Sit with them, you know, like be that companion. Don't try to offer solutions. There's no solution to there's no, there's nothing that's gonna make it better. And you gotta be comfortable with that, you know, and sit with them until they make it through, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:34

Where do you think um either we as a society or, you know, hospital providers, how can we, how can we better support lost moments? Like, where do you see room to grow?

SPEAKER_03 40:46

I think continued acknowledgement, continued conversations. I think in the hospital space, it gets a little tricky. Um, this is my understanding, not working for a hospital myself. A lot of hospitals are doing this work very, very well. Like, very well. And I could name a couple of them. I can't really, but I could name a couple that I was like, here, you you do what they're doing, you'll be good as gold. But there's some that just they don't think about it often because maybe they don't have a lot of losses, you know. And here in my city, like we have plenty. Um, but you go even 45 minutes out of town, it's just cornfields, you know? Yeah. So we have a lot of rural hospitals and they may only see a loss a year, so they don't train people on it. They don't know what's going on. And I mean, I get the the constraints of that. But at the same time, that one mom that comes in with a loss, that's her only loss, hopefully. Um, and that's still the worst moment of her life, whether she's in the big city or she's in a rural hospital. But like more people need to be educated on how to work with these families. Um, there just needs to be more acknowledgement and more conversation. And hospitals don't often want to talk about loss. And I don't know if it's a sense that it reflects poorly on them. Like, oh, if people know babies die here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

Um I never thought about that.

SPEAKER_03 41:51

Yeah. And some um, we don't tag hospitals in our posts or anything like that, but we've gotten questions from hospitals before, or hospital personnel saying, well, how does it work if you, you know, do we become known as part of this, you know, and things. And it's been made known to us that there are definitely uh facilities that are like, we don't, they wouldn't be okay with you mentioning loss because that that wouldn't look good, you know, from a PR perspective that babies die here, you know. That is just not gonna get you anywhere.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

I know I see that so differently of like you're you're missing so many opportunities. I see that as such a missed opportunity to know we provide even on your worst day the most excellent care, which is for me, let's say, let's say the possibility was there for me to have a rainbow baby. I'm gonna want to like the people who helped me out, where else would I go? Back to the people who loved me on my deepest, darkest day. I feel like that's such a missed opportunity. Or to see like the compassionate care, even if you've never experienced loss, like witnessing compassionate care, who doesn't that just feels like a gap?

SPEAKER_03 42:56

Yeah, it's a gap on a lot of levels. To me, it's like as absurd as saying, oh, people don't get sick here, you know. Yeah, yeah. I mean, this this, but this is what you do, like you're a hospital, yeah, you know, like yeah. And most, I mean, most aren't that way, but there is some of that. But it just needs to be talked about. And I think as a society, we've come a really long way, but that progress is not quick, it's not linear either. You can really only reflect on it in like large chunks of time. You know, you can't be like, oh, this time last year, you're not gonna see much, you know. You're gonna think back 10, 20, 30 years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:33

Um, because I know I mentioned my grandma having a stillbirth, and I always knew about that baby just because I know where she's buried and she has a headstone, which is even another.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

Not because your family talked about it.

SPEAKER_03 43:45

My grandma's been gone since I was 12. Um, I don't remember my grandma ever mentioning it. Um, but I knew because I had seen her grave. I think it was my aunt that I had asked, like, oh, who's that? And she's still very much of a an age and a time where you just Don't talk about unpleasant things. Like, but she wasn't going to lie to me either. So she was like, oh, you know, my grandma had a baby. I was, I forget how old my aunt was. I was seven or eight. You know, it was before your dad was born. She's buried here. Her name, you know, was this, that kind of thing. So I knew that. And like we would, maybe it's a cultural thing where I grew up, but like visiting cemeteries is something you do. You know, at least a handful of times a year, everybody gets their flowers, you know? So like seeing her grave was like a very common occurrence in my childhood. And that it always just struck me, like, oh, there's the baby, you know? It was very simple. There wasn't anything fancy about it. You know, it's a flat stone and I'm not even sure it's visible anymore. I haven't been to that graveyard in a long time. But it was just kind of a known thing. And that's what I knew for many years. Just, oh, okay. You know, there was no, there's no connection in my head to like who it was, or, you know, it didn't occur to me like the grandma that I can see today is the woman that gave birth to this baby all those years ago, things like that. But as I started doing this work, I was like, wow, this baby was born in like the late 1940s. Like the fact that she ever saw the baby, that she had to take the baby home and bury it, and they had a funeral, you know, like all that is wild to me because that did not happen.

SPEAKER_04 45:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:08

And it wasn't, I mean, it was many decades after that. It still wasn't happening. So, and I wish I knew more about it now. My grandma's long gone, I can't ask her, but I wish I knew how that came about or like what that process was like, or like what any of it was like. But I'll I'll never know. You know, there's no one left that knows. What I do know, my aunt is still alive. And one of the wildest things to me that I found out not that long ago, is somewhere in my aunt's things, there's pictures of this baby. And that to me, I'm just, I can't wrap my head around it, you know? And I'm like, one day I'm gonna, I'm gonna see the face of this baby that's been like this theoretical aunt of mine for the last, you know, nearly 50 years of my life. Certainly, you know, we're coming up on 80 years since the baby would have been born. But like there's there might be a photo. Like I could see all these years later, does the baby look like my dad? You know, they had the same fathers. Like, maybe does it look like my aunt? Like, what does the baby look like? You know, like I know nothing of the baby, you know, but I might get to see her face someday, you know, and that's wild to me. And I think that also shows why the work that we're doing today is still important because a hundred years from now, somebody's gonna get to look into the faces of these babies.

SPEAKER_02 46:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 46:17

Just be like, oh wow, you know, like this is this is all that exists, but wow, there it is, you know.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

Yeah. You mentioned some hospitals that are doing things really well. I know that maybe you can't name them off, but can you share examples of care that you've seen that is done really well or is really meaningful to families?

SPEAKER_03 46:35

What I think makes a difference is they invest in bereavement care. They make sure it's a priority for them for their labor and delivery units. I'm sure they're Nikki unit, we're more like we do a lot of Nikki work, but more of the bereavement type stuff comes into the labor delivery in our experience. But they're really putting forth the work. They're training their nurses, they're making sure that there's always at least a nurse or two on staff at all times that knows how to care for a loss, should it come in, you know?

SPEAKER_02 47:00

Um It's not just one person on the in the whole staff that know, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_03 47:05

And I guess sometimes that's the best you can do. You know, it depends on staffing and all like sometimes you've got you've got your one nurse. Yep. We all know her. And there's hospitals here in town that, you know, I know nurses by their first name because she's always the one. And there's nothing wrong with that either. But there are hospitals out there making sure that like several nurses have things. There are people actively working all the time on the binder. You know, everybody has some version of the binder. It is up to date. There's no, you're not gonna find resources in there that with broken links. There's no like QR code that you're gonna scan, it's gonna take you to nothing. I mean, they are like, they are on it. And they are very um kind of an end-to-end, I don't know what to call it, but from the moment that mom gets there and is checking in and we know things aren't going the way that she had intended or hoped. They are talking about it, you know, they are walking with her, they're not avoiding it, you know, because again, that's not helpful. They are talking about all of her options from the beginning so that she has plenty of time to think through it, you know. They are with her, they are, you know, one-to-one care. She's going through this. They're telling her what to expect. I mean, you and I have both given birth to healthy babies too. And you don't have any idea what to expect when that happens, you know? But can you imagine also the baby's gone? Like that's a whole different, it's like being on a different planet, you know, like nothing's what you're saying. I would say that's accurate. But they are walking them through like every step of the way. And they're also addressing the things that no one else ever thinks of, you know. See, I've seen their binders, I've seen their resources, and they're like, here's here's a list of funeral homes, you know, because unfortunately you have to think about that now. You know, they're not dancing around the topic, or they're saying, here's a list of funeral homes that will cremate babies for free, you know, because not everybody can just afford that, you know. Um, there's no life insurance. There's no, you know, for a lot of people, there's no magical$10,000 sitting around for a funeral. So they're just trying to do the best they can. Here's resources for support groups. Here's, you know, here's places you can connect with. Here's, you know, places that do offer financial assistance for burials and things like that. You know, here's here's this, here's that. They also have resources or tangible resources on hand. Most hospitals are going to have like a little blanket or something, but they really like they have a lot of stuff. Like, what collar dress do you want to put her in? You know, we've got six options. Things like that bring the parents more into that parenting aspect is they get to make some choices, you know, instead of just the choice.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

Everything are so underrated, but so vitally important. That's the only outfit you're gonna get to choose. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:31

You know? That's the one you're gonna see on your baby in your head for the rest of your natural life. So have a few options, you know? Mm-hmm. And I know some of the hospital uh or the wedding gown things are popular. Not everybody likes those, you know. There's plenty about you can put a sleeper on a baby, that's okay too, you know? Yeah. But like some crocheted hats, some crocheted blankets, make sure you got memory boxes because when that parent leaves the hospital, that's the one thing they're gonna leave with, you know? That's it. They're not leaving with a car tape. They're not leaving with the baby, they're leaving with a box that's you know, a shoe box size, and it's got maybe a little bear and it's maybe got a lock of hair. It's got that's but that's it. That's that's what they leave with, you know. Yeah. And um from a lot of parents, and I remember being with you and you left the hospital with James, like leaving is horrific, you know, it's the worst, you know. And I've talked to moms who I wasn't with them when they left, but they're like, I literally, it took me four hours to leave and they had to coach me. You know, I had a social worker that got me to go sit on the other side of the room closer to the door, you know, and I could do that for a couple hours before they could open the door. You know, like it was so traumatic that I couldn't, I physically couldn't move my body to leave the room. And I get it, you know, because I can't imagine walking away from my baby, you know, my children, my living children. Like just to walk away is just blows my mind, you know. So I don't know how any lost mom has ever done that. Um, but that's like the one thing they're gonna have is this little box of like crying out loud, make it robust, make it good, think of everything, you know, put everything in there. They're investing in like memory cards for their own cameras because they're taking photos too. You're not gonna have too many photos ever. I've never heard anyone say that ever. You don't ever have to look at them. It's fine. But like in 50 years, they're gonna be there if you want to, you know. So just do it. But every memory they're ever gonna have of their babies like fit into this box. So there's some really good options out there for those boxes. But yeah, those hospitals that are doing a really good job are staying up to date. They're staying current, they're staying current on, you know, best practices and research too, because there's research that goes into this. There's there's best practices all over the place. Um, and it's important to stay up on those because you can't always do it the way it's always been done because it hasn't always been done well, you know? So change, change when change is appropriate. But they're doing the work and making sure that the investment is there and they're confronting the situations head on when they present themselves.

SPEAKER_02 51:52

What is the one thing that you wish people in general and even lost parents themselves better understood about what it's like to care for families through miscarriage, stillbirth, infant loss as a care professional?

SPEAKER_03 52:08

That's a really good question. No one is doing this work that doesn't want to be doing this work. So, like anyone that's with you in those moments, don't feel bad. You're not inconveniencing their data. I've been apologized to a lot. Oh, I'm sorry, you know, you were probably eating dinner, but like, you do not need to be worried about me right now. Like, I'm fine. I wouldn't be here if I didn't have the ability to be here. But no one doing that work is doing it against their will, you know. Even a even a nurse that's being paid to be there, they're not gonna give you her as your nurse if she doesn't have some capacity to do it. You know, everyone has their first time and it doesn't always go well, and I get that. But like everybody that's helping you or around you wants to be there. So lean into that, you know, know that we're there to help. Um, we're there to do the best we can by you. Know that we feel it, you know. Like we're never gonna feel it as intensely as you do, you know. We don't want to, you know, we're grateful. There's not a day that goes by, especially in this work that I'm not grateful that I have three healthy kids, you know, and I've never lost one. And that's never lost on me. So my day's never as bad as yours. It's never going to be. And that's okay. But that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt a lot sometimes, you know. Like the work hurts. And still I'm grateful that I can absorb a little bit of that to make it a little bit easier for them at some point in that journey. But it does hurt, you know. And it doesn't hurt because we knew your baby. We don't know your baby, you know, we didn't carry that baby. We don't know the baby, but we know a lot of us for me personally, I know what it's like to love a child. And that's enough to make that bridge, you know, because I can't imagine losing one. And I don't know this baby, but I know what that connection is and I know the pain that's there right now. And I can acknowledge that, you know. And it does hurt to watch it over and over, you know.

SPEAKER_02 53:46

Because I know you. I'm gonna press on something that you said um that you can't imagine. And I know that you can. I know you can because you have the darkest, most terrifying moments ever. We made it all, we made it a whole hour. I think that you were born with a mom's heart. And I think no matter what you were doing, you would access that mom heart no matter what you're doing. And I'm just so grateful that you're using it this way. So I know that you can't imagine it because you have.

SPEAKER_03 54:16

It was every bit as awful as one might imagine it, too.

SPEAKER_02 54:20

Yeah. Yeah. My last question: if someone listening only changes one thing in how they care for a last mom, what would you want it to be?

SPEAKER_03 54:29

I would say the overall idea, and there's a lot of factors that go into this, but the overall is that if you change one thing, let it be the belief that silence is protective because it's not. Um, acknowledgement is that gift. And that can be that can come in a lot of forms. And that that it applies across the board, you know, whether you're a care provider or whether you're just just a friend or anything. Like silence is not protective, you know. The conversations need to happen. Like I said, grief doesn't need a solution, it needs a companion, you know. Like as uncomfortable as coming out of that silence might be sometimes and as weird as it might feel, do it. Just do it. You're not gonna regret doing it. You're gonna have some really good conversations and you're gonna learn a lot about your people. But yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 55:13

So well said. I know people are going to want to follow Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep after this conversation. What's the best way for people to connect with you guys?

SPEAKER_03 55:22

Um, our most active channels are our Facebook and our Instagram. Um I think our handle or whatever is just at Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep spelled out. It might be at Nilmits, which is what we say for our acronym. It's a little weird. Anytime I tell people that aren't part of us, they're like, What? What is that word? Right. It's N-I-L-M-D-T-S. But yeah, we're pretty easy to find. We're out there. You can always sign up for newsletters on our website, things like that. But yeah, you'll see a lot there. We have a lot of blog posts are really popular with us. So if you're looking for some, you know, stories that might be like yours, might find them out there. You know.

SPEAKER_02 55:53

Yeah. Yeah. Missy, thank you so much for today.

SPEAKER_01 55:58

Thank you for being a part of this conversation. At Gathering Help, we believe that caring well for lost moms goes beyond words. It looks like presence, understanding, and a willingness to learn how to show up in meaningful ways. Through our Beyond Words workshop, we continue to equip individuals, ministries, and healthcare professionals to support grieving mothers with compassion and care. If something from this conversation stayed with you, we'd love for you to take a next step. You can share this episode with someone in your life who wants to care well. Follow along with Gathering Hope on Instagram, Facebook, or TikTok, or visit gatheringhope.org to learn more about our Beyond Words workshop and how we can bring it to your community. And as always, whether you're a lost mom or someone who cares about lost moms, we're so grateful you're here.