Beyond Words with Heather LaVigne

What happens when the person caring for you has walked through loss, too?

In this episode of The Sucky Sisterhood Podcast, Peyton sits down with Heather LaVigne, a nurse practitioner turned author, teacher, and ministry partner, who brings both professional experience and her own journey through infertility and pregnancy loss.

Together, they talk about:

• What it’s like to experience loss from both sides of the room
• The gaps in care and the moments that matter most
• How presence, acknowledgment, and compassion can shape a mother’s experience

Heather shares from her own 10-year journey through infertility and loss, as well as her time caring for patients in the medical field. She offers an honest look at how personal experience can shape the way care is given, and the importance of slowing down and truly seeing the person in front of you.

This conversation is a powerful reminder that meaningful care doesn’t always require the right words, but it does require compassion, awareness, and a willingness to be present.

🔗 Connect with Heather LaVigne

Instagram: @heatherlavigneauthor
Facebook: Heather LaVigne
Website: www.heatherlavigneauthor.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the Sucky Sisterhood Podcast by Gathering Hope. I'm Peyton Lauderdale, host of the podcast and co-founder of Gathering Hope. Alongside Carol Vantyne, our co-founder and producer of this podcast, we're so glad you're here. This season is centered around the work we do through our Beyond Words workshop, where we equip healthcare professionals, ministry leaders, and others in the community to better support women who've experienced miscarriage, stillbirth, or infant loss. Over time, we realize that while there are many conversations about how to care for lost moms, there are far fewer that acknowledge the experience of those providing that care. One of our deepest hopes for this season is to help bridge that gap. In each episode, we're sitting down with people who walk closely with lost moms in some of their hardest moments. From medical professionals to counselors to ministry leaders, we're creating space for honest conversations about what that compassionate care can really look like. For some of our guests, this work is not only professional, but it's personal. And we want to acknowledge and honor that too. Each of these conversations has been a learning opportunity for us. They've reminded us of the importance of staying curious and listening well, and our hope is to bring understanding, perspective, and a more human side to these roles. Before we dive in, I want to take a moment to say this. We've come to deeply appreciate the weight that people in these roles carry. They're often present in moments that are incredibly tender and devastating, and that's not something that's always seen or acknowledged. So this season we want to be a space where people who walk alongside lost moms are honored too. Whether you're a lost mom yourself or someone who cares about lost moms, we're really glad you're here. Before we begin today's conversation, we want to start by sharing a story from a lost mom. These stories shared by women in our community reflect real experiences in some of the most difficult moments of their lives, and they bring awareness to things that often go unseen or are misunderstood. And while many of these moments are hard, we also invited our listeners to highlight the times when someone showed up with care, compassion, or left an impact in a meaningful way.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

She is mom to her heaven baby meadow. I have a few moments that have stayed with me when we unexpectedly lost our daughter at 30 weeks. Being told congratulations while being ushered to labor and delivery room was so tough. So many smiles that didn't know I was actually being taken in for an induction for one of the worst days of my life. I was crying and it wasn't because I was in labor. Each congrats that was meant for good felt like a stab each time. The world keeps spinning, even though I still grieve. People forget my sadness because they're not living in it. But I hold on to those moments.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

Moments like that are why these conversations matter. Behind every role, every title, every interaction, there's a real person walking through something incredibly vulnerable. And today we're going to talk about what it looks like to step into those moments with care.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

Today, Peyton is joined by Heather Levine, a nurse practitioner who cares for women in vulnerable and often complex moments, and who also brings her experience as a loss mom. In this conversation, they talk about the human side of medical care and what it means to walk with families through loss.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

Heather, thank you so much for joining us on the Sucky Sisterhood podcast today. As you bring so many different perspectives, but I'm going to let you introduce yourself and share a little bit about who you are and what drew you to the work that you're doing today. So tell us a little bit about you, what your role is.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Peyton. Honestly, it's it's a joy to be here. It should be noted that I I chased you guys down first before you sure did. I love it. I love what they're doing so much. How can I, how can I just support them? So it's it's truly my honor to be here. So I I am um by trade and by study a nurse practitioner. So I had been a nurse practitioner for about 15 years. And the last year I left the field to finish my book. So I guess that makes me a published author now. So I wrote a book. It's called Baron, and it is a shared story of infertility, loss, and faith. And basically what I do in the book is I um give the story or the account of women in the Bible who experienced uh infertility and loss, and then I thread my own experience, um, 10-year experience throughout it and talking about all the different facets of our life of that wilderness in that time from primary and secondary infertility and then um multiple miscarriage and you know adoption plans kind of fallen through.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

I think your story is gonna resonate on so many levels with so many women. And I think that this is um just as you were introducing yourself, I was thinking this is the perfect season for us to know Heather. And because the the podcast this season is approaching what was helpful, what was hurtful, Makanna intertwines with a workshop we do called Beyond Words. But you carry so many different roles in one woman. So a lost mom, you have the scientific background, you have the nurse practitioner experience. Um, and so can you speak to what drew you to leaving, you know, your nurse practitioner job to writing a book? What led you into this spot?

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Yeah, I mean, I think for a while, I mean, I started writing this book when my daughter was born. Um, and she was sort of the closing to that story for us. And like any silly mom, you have all these goals, and you're like, I'm gonna write a book on my maternity leave. No. She turned five yesterday. So they just I think like many of us in that journey and kind of coming back and slowly pivoting back to the Lord and finding my heart restored in him. I realized there was not a lot for me, especially out here in the Midwest where I live. There's just not a lot of support. There was not churches that we were in were really struggling to walk alongside of us. I think they were doing their very best. And we had a 10-year journey and four losses. And so really, that is complicated grief. And I think people really struggled to figure out how to walk alongside of us. We had a lot of family complications happening at the same time. And so, as we sort of lost our support, so to say, I felt a really deep desire. My husband felt a deep desire of we we can walk alongside, you know, and so we're doing that one-on-one in our church and in just in small spaces. And then I continued to write the book. Um, and then God just made it incredibly clear as He does, is that my work was done for a while. My daughter lost her child care. My dad had an emergent, kind of some emergent things myself. I had surgery. So it was time to leave. He made it very evident, and that gave me time to really wrap up the book and to really go both feet in into some ministry work, um support groups. We're doing a conference out here in Michigan next month. Um, and just excited to kind of see how I could be used by him.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

Love that. Thank you for sharing to know that the Lord is kind of making things clear about what season you're in now. I love, I love it when he is kind to do that, like pointing out the direction.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

So, Heather, in your experience, what are some of the moments where you've interacted with lost moms? As a nurse practitioner, one of the things that we're learning is that lost moms can come into any area of the hospital. And so, what has that looked like for you to interact with lost moms, especially being a lost mom yourself? Has that influenced your care for them?

SPEAKER_00 7:44

I think, like anything, right? Any deep grief that you walk through, like it has the ability to completely transform who you are in any identity, right? From motherhood to career to whatever your roles are. And so absolutely it has transformed my ability to care, I think, for my patients. My background is in pediatrics. So I'm I used to see a lot of babies and was very excited to see a lot of babies. But, you know, also that goes with natural, you know, history taking as all of us experience when we go to the doctor's office. And so you kind of do get into the weeds of wow, you know, like you've experienced a lot of loss. Like you can tell that from kind of looking at somebody's birth history, which is pretty common to get from a child. And a lot of times for myself, I would enter into those spaces just carefully because, you know, my role is not necessarily to be pastoral in that moment, but I was open to it if the Lord opened it for me. And so, you know, often praying um before entering the room. And then also, you know, as I go over the history, maybe just taking that time, the time sometimes that I wasn't given to pause over confirming that history, to leave space for for her, for the family to to give comment or if they wanted to to express, you know, some lament over that season and and also comment on it to say you've been through a lot and to allow them to be able to enter in if they if they felt safe to do that. I think just naturally having a a higher level of empathy too for any sort of circumstance. I took care of really complex kids. And so, you know, it wasn't uncommon. Um, I had a few patients that had passed away. Um, and understanding the complexities of walking out your theology in some of the darkest days of your life, right? Like you can really walk alongside somebody in a very different way and a very thoughtful way when they need it most. And I mean, I think that's just really the Lord's mercy, right? That's his his mercy every morning is is when we can be him to somebody else and show them him in a different light.

SPEAKER_02 9:43

What I'm hearing is acknowledgement. And you said, you know, to offer some of your patients what you didn't get. Can you describe what some of those like can you give us the backstory of that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

So I think like many of us in in the infertility community, it's a it gets really medicalized. And I think even in the lost community, it can sometimes too, especially as you go back to try to have that second child, like it gets really medicalized of like, did we check everything? Did we do everything right? And you kind of just get on a conveyor belt, right? Like you're just, especially when you're in the infertility communities, like they're, you know, you're pushing towards fertility treatments depend depending on what you're doing, or you're assessing your cycles. And so I often experienced when I was seeing like a reproductive endocrinologist that they just were kind of like, okay, well, you've had uh three losses. You've got this, you know, your gestation, this number, your para, this number, this is how many babies you've had. And it's just data. It's just hard data. And nobody is sitting with you for a second to say, Whoa, whoa, are you okay? Like, how are you dealing with this? How are you spiritually? We're so stuck on the physical realm that we lose track of what this person has has spiritually in their soul experienced, right? I I had an I had an um an encounter with a uh Napro specialist, which those are the uh kind of the creaton. They um are the Catholic version of how do we optimize your fertility? Yeah. I had seen her, her name was Dr. Barrows. I'd seen her after I had had three miscarriages. And I was trying to be the professional, I was trying to be the nurse practitioner and tell her that I knew how to speak her lingo and give her all the data that she wanted in in the way she spoke. And I did it. And she stopped me and she said, What? She paged back in my consult and she said, What what faith background are you? And I said, Oh, I'm Christian, evangelical, whatever, you know, Christian. And she said, Do you do you believe that life begins at conception? And I said, Yeah, of course, of course I do. And she said, You have been through so much loss. You have been through so much death at this point. You have lost three babies. Are you okay? Nobody had ever said that to me, ever, like in any of the fertility clinics and any even my, you know, primary care doctor. My OB was better about it, but she saw exactly and she was like, Are you, how are you dealing with this? And asked me some really like tough, right questions. And I was like, Well, you know, I'm in therapy and I'm I'm working through this. I really actually appreciate, even though it it probably sounds a little bit harsh, like I appreciated that she saw what I had been through and she had the braveness to ask me, like, are you doing okay spiritually? Like, because if this is what you believe, these are real deaths. Um, these are just chemical pregnancies and whatever we want to kind of medicalize and call them, these are real deaths that you've experienced. And is your soul okay? So that was a very different experience that I'd had from what I'd experienced prior.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

I can imagine that was both a relief, but also really jarring at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

Yes. Yes. But at the same point, I think at that, in that time in my life, in all honesty, Peyton, I was just pushing through, right? So we're in the life of multiple miscarriages. I was, you know, seeking out more holistic treatment just to to because I wasn't ready to give up on being a mother again. And so I kind of sought out this therapy, which is more of a holistic approach. And in doing that, I wasn't allowed to be numb anymore. She wasn't gonna let me get away with just kind of barreling through anymore. She was asking me the tough questions that I needed to be asked to make sure that I was okay before we went forward with the medical treatment, which is the right way.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

Yeah. Um, we hear from a lot of lost moms who feel like they're, you know, they they experience some really hurtful things, some really hurtful words. And it's not even always the words, it's it's attitudes, it's um body language, you know. And so it it sounds like you had been through a system that kind of allowed you to just skip over some things, or at least to try to skip over some things.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think too, it's very easy to kind of just I I think even as a provider, right? As somebody who provides medicine and as a patient, it was just very easy to get on that conveyor belt of now this thing, now this thing, now we're gonna pursue pregnancy this way. Now we're gonna monitor you this way, now we're gonna give you the progesterone, now we're gonna make sure that we're scientifically trying to do all the things to align your body in a way so that you you can get pregnant again even after these losses. And you do, you just kind of get caught up in the schedules and the medicine and doing all the right things. And maybe it's not even the medicine, maybe it's just the tracking of your cycle and making sure those times happen when they're supposed to happen and that you're peeing on that stick when you're supposed to. And yeah, and in the busyness of that, of all those tasks that had to get done, it was so easy just to just push back on the deep pain, you know, even though I was in therapy, even though we were talking about those things, I could just put it in its little box and I put it up on the shelf. And then I'm here I am, I'm ready to do the next thing, right? And sometimes it would just felt easier that way. And sometimes there are seasons that you just you have to do that to be able to function through. But I just thanked Dr. Barrows and her team for for really asking me those tough questions and really demanding the answers of them and didn't really allow me to just kind of push through. She wanted to make sure that I was okay in my soul before we kept going forward with some of the ways that she could help.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

What a difference that can make. Thinking back to your role in the professional side, you said like sometimes you kind of have to, you know, have to switch into that mindset. As we think about other lost moms, and you said, like, you know, you're working in pediatrics, but you're coming across lost moms. Many people don't realize like the emotional weight that you're carrying as that provider. Can you let people into what things are like on your side of the room in those moments? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

I mean, I would say from my end, I kind of alluded to it to before, you know, experience, you know, some of my patients dying. I'd even spoken at one of my patients' funerals, depending on, you know, what your level of a of care that is that you give, if you're like a hospitalist and in a hospital role versus if you're in a clinic role and what kind of patients you see, I mean, you can certainly experience a lot of death. My last role, I experienced a lot of death. I was in a procedural role. And, you know, just like when you are in the valley and life just keeps lifing, right? We all, we all kind of experience this where you have either miscarried, you have lost your child, but that the world doesn't stop, right? And I think a provider really understands that well because you may start your shift and get awful news about a family that you love that you could have been taking care of for 10 years, and maybe there's a bad prognosis for their child, and then you've got to continue the rest of your day, right? This could feel like family to you. You could have watched your own patient die that day and you may have to continue on, right? Could you be excused sometimes, but sometimes not. Even as a provider, I mean, myself, I, you know, had a high risk pregnancy with my boys, and I was actively in labor at work, and I could not go home because there was nobody to relieve me. And so I was nervous, you know, calling my own office, my doctor's office, and they're like, you need to get home. We both know this. Take these meds, sit down, drink some water. You know, thankfully, somebody could come and relieve me. You know, you get into those situations where you're trying to care for somebody else really intentionally, or in a, you know, anything like a short staff practice, you you might have to do something that you've got to put yourself to the side. I, you know, I was in the NICU rounding on babies, so neonatal ICU, rounding on babies when I was miscarrying. We we don't know when these things are gonna happen, right? And so I had only had my boys a year earlier. I had no leave. I had no vacation time saved up for me to go home. And so I was rounding and seeing these critically ill little babies who needed me just as much in that moment, but I knew that my body was going through this process. And thankfully, I was rounding with a doctor who was a woman, and she's not a believer, but she was like, Something is wrong with you. She knew I was, and she was like, Do you need prayer? And I was like, Are you gonna pray for me? And she was like, No, but I think you should go home. I'm gonna find someone who will. She's like, maybe go find your colleague who can. She's like, You just don't look good and you don't seem yourself. And so thankfully, after all of that, you know, not having enough vacation time, being actively, you know, passing this baby, I was able to go home early. And she was like, I won't tell anybody. It's fine, just check your inbox when you get home, right? I still have work to do. Um, and and there just isn't like I I this isn't nobody's fault, but unfortunately, our medical system at this point is is there is a lot of pressure on providers to perform, even in spite of what is happening in their personal life. And there's just not a lot of empathy, unfortunately, for what we experience.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

That seems to be a common thread in the interviews that we're doing this season, is that I think the the side of things that lost moms may not be aware of, and not that they need to like cradle the emotions when they're going through their own loss of their provider, right? But something that we can reflect on now that we have this um this knowledge is that your provider, when they come in the room, if they seem stoic or they, you know, they just don't have the compassion that you're like, hey, hello, I could really use, you know, some words of comfort here in addition to the way that you're caring for my body. They're going from room to room with a variety of experiences. And like you just alluded to, they could also like they may be going through their own things as well. So not only their personal life, but like every room that they go into that day is carrying something different. And I think it would go a long way in our society in general if we just acknowledge that everyone is carrying something into whatever room that they go into. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What do you think has been the most surprising to you as a nurse practitioner or a lost mom, either about the work that you're doing or about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 20:00

I think um as a lost mom, you know, if you were to put me back right when we were in the middle of this, when we um had experience, we'd had our third miscarriage. And so I think it's important to know um with my story, I had lost through IVF, which, you know, uh in infertility patients tend to hold, I think they say somewhere around 20% of all miscarriages because of um the different advanced reproductive technology we use. But I had had two spontaneous pregnancies as well. And so um after my third, and that was a spontaneous pregnancy, I one had experienced a ton of guilt about this is my fault now. I know better. I know my body cannot sustain a pregnancy on its own without scientific support, whether that's true or not, right? Now I look back and I'm like, oh, the Lord is so much bigger than that, right? But at the same point, like I had convinced myself, both medically and spiritually, that my body could not. And I felt I carried a ton of guilt about that. And so if you told me, Heather, you're gonna be writing this book or you're gonna be in this different space of faith five years down the road than you are now, I would have been, I would have fallen out of my chair. Because in that moment, I I was like deeply wrestling with God and his goodness. I was just not able to see him. Like I had, I had convinced myself that, you know, he had created me, right? He had fearfully and wonderfully created me to be a mother. And yet this pregnancy that I didn't even ask for, he had taken away. Like I had been given this gift and now he's taking it back. And so that's how I saw it in that moment. And I was ready to walk. Like I just was like, I cannot live in this faith. I cannot live out this faith. I cannot serve this God any longer. I I can't believe this has happened not once, but this is my second spontaneous pregnancy that had ended this way. And then and then and then IBF chemical pregnancy in between. And I just cannot reconcile my own emotions with my faith in that moment, even though I knew better, right? My brain knew better. But I had to have that moment of can't do this until I came to a point of where else will I go? Right. Like Peter, like to where else will I go? And so again, like I, if you asked me, like, you're gonna write a book about this and your faith is gonna be stronger in five years because of this, because of this moment, I would have never believed you. I would have been like, nope, totally gonna be, I don't know what may be doing, maybe living in, you know, another country and selling coconuts, something else, you know, you get to that point, you're like, I I just cannot continue this way anymore. But I mean, praise the Lord, because we were just talking about God in his mercy putting people alongside. He put so many people, Peyton, around me, that he's just like, and this, because you won't listen to me, Heather. So I'm gonna show you me through somebody else, right? Say more about that, please. Yeah. So I had this was in the middle of this, you know. So something that some women may have experienced is serial lab testing. So when you get pregnant, we want to watch those numbers double, right? And if they're not the right gold standard number, you have to have lab testing basically done every two to three days. And if you miscarry, you have to have lab testing done every three, two to three days to make sure that that level, that pregnancy level, goes back to zero. Going back in so many times, that's so hard. And you're going back in when you start out, you're terrified. You know, I've had three miscarriages. I am terrified that my I'm not gonna be pregnant or that my my beta level is what it's called, is not gonna be the right number. And so I still remember finding Kim Dexter house. So she was a lab technician at my local satellite lab. And I knew her because she did the blood work for lots of my patients who were difficult sticks, difficult Ivypokes. And so I knew of her because of her skill, but I did not know of her because of her heart. And so she took me on. She went from being my like, I'm gonna take excellent care of your patients to I'm gonna take excellent care of you. And so she actually did all of my blood work when I was kind of going through that last sprint to the finish with my daughter. That was our last embryo. That was my last attempt at getting pregnant again. And so she basically did every single lab. Um, and I would go in and see her, and she was just this like bubbling light of joy, just so happy to see me. And she would just whisper my name and like motion me in and would draw, draw the curtain around us to give us whatever privacy that you can have in that situation. And she would sit down knee to knee with me and she would grab my hands and she would say, How are you? How are you? Wow. I'm you can't make this up, right? And so I would I then she'd be like, Just tell me everything, just tell me everything. And not a rush in her tone, not not a hurriedness. This is in a lab. I don't know if you all have been in a lab, but they're like, sit in the chair, put the tourniquet on, you're out of here. Yeah. And next. Yeah, exactly. She had no, she there was just such a slowness in her presence. The hurry, like, there was no hurry there at all. And she would just sit me down and she would give me a tight hug and she would just sit with me, knee to knee. What can I do? How are you? Right. And if there was good news, she would just clap her hands and she would be like, God is so good. He's so good. And if there was bad news, she would say, Let's pray. And she would say, He knows, honey, he loves you, and so do I. She like literally was like the embodiment, I think, of Galatians 6, 2, right? That we need to carry each other's burdens. She carried my burden when everybody else was like, This journey is hard and too long. I love them all. Some of them, you know, have with good meaning. But God brought different people in to say, you know, we're gonna really do well in the family of believers here. I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you these people. And they, I think, really truly committed to that, like Galatians 6, 10 of I'm gonna go and do it, take every opportunity to do good, especially to that family of believers. And she would say that to me, I'm your sister in Christ. I love you, I care about you, know that I'm for you. That's like these visits, right? Who lets, I don't know. God just appointed the time for us to just sit there. She also was just like a bulldog about making sure my labs were all correct. Like, did they get put in properly? She would be calling the doc. She she was excellent both in practice and in just carrying my burdens. And that's what I needed. She would like teams me and I would be seeing patients, and she would teams me and be like, I just want to check on you and let you know that I love you and I hope you're doing okay. I haven't seen you in two days. And I got to share those, those, those celebrations with her too, both the losses and the celebrations. And even to this day, like I have seen her probably in the last year, and there's just such a special relationship with her where I'm like, God put her right there for this moment because I needed to see his mercy come through somebody else, right? I had chosen to kind of block out to believe that he had it. And I got to see it in Kim.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

Wow. That lays that's a great segue into the next question I have. And you've kind of touched on it already. But what do you think matters most in how care is given during these kinds of moments? Like, what are small things, like you said, that she would like send you a message and say, I care about you thinking about you today. But what are some other small things that make a bigger difference than people might expect?

SPEAKER_00 27:16

I think from like a medical standpoint, as somebody in medicine, like I just really appreciate a thorough review of somebody's chart. This is just practical. I that's that's we need to hear that. Like, I just I just don't believe you belong in the room. If you've not thoroughly reviewed the chart, I say that to my patients before I like I'm like, I have I have gone through and I actually did it last night, just we didn't just do it five seconds before because people, you know, like my medical history was so complex. I had I have endometriosis too. I've had multiple excisions, I've had multiple surgeries. So when somebody comes in and is rushed or doesn't understand your history, that's so hard to even start out with. But I think even more from the soul care aspect that Kim kind of showed us of taking the time, you can have an unhurried presence and still have a schedule in mind. And sometimes you're just gonna have to be late, right? Like you can't rush somebody else's grief, you can't rush somebody's anxiety, you can't rush somebody's depression. And so I think really just having a presence and bringing the Lord in with you. We kind of talked about that. Like I would pray over a room before I went over in there. And if I can, I offer to pray in the room and I offer that up to the patient if I feel like that's appropriate. But definitely your presence in the room. I think we'd even talked about that you and I with with uh Carol, that sometimes you don't have to say anything. Like I might have somebody in the room with me that has never said a word, but they convey to me, right, with eye contact, with very intentional movements throughout the room, with intentional touch, right? Knee to knee, like Kim did, putting your hand on somebody else's hand without even saying a word, for me to know that, oh wow, like you you see me, you see me here, you know, just maybe kicking out somebody if they need to be kicked out of their right. You know, we're delivering and somebody's like not helpful. Like they may never say a word to you, but they convey their presence and the presence of the Lord with them without even without even words, I think can be really powerful.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

So I don't know if I've shared this with you, but the root of this whole project of our Beyond Words workshop and this season of the podcast started uh maybe three years ago, maybe more than that. But what we had a mom share in our group about she received a phone call from her doctor's office. It was a nurse calling her and saying that she was losing her baby. And it was very early in that pregnancy. And there was a very real sense that she did not review that chart because the words that she shared with her were, Well, it's okay, it wasn't a real baby yet anyway. Regardless of your belief about life, if she had reviewed that chart, she would have seen that that mom had been pregnant multiple times in the last year, that she's clearly trying to have a living child be part of her life. Yes. And if she had just opened that up, I think it was probably still in the days where you actually would open a file or clicked through just to see before she picked up that phone, maybe she wouldn't have said that.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

Yeah. And I'm sure that was like her I put my foot in my mouth reaction. And I I guarantee you, I am human. I have put my foot in my mouth. You know, I've seen patients, I can I could list them off for you because I don't forget that. And I'm like, I'll never do that again. That will never, yeah, that will never, and I and I hope for that nurse that that's that's a similar experience. Because I think, you know, just like in other spaces beyond medicine, churches, families, like we we put our foot in our mouth.

SPEAKER_02 30:51

We sure do. I still I still do. And this is what I do for a living now, you know? Yes, yeah. I I I think that was like the only way that I can make it make sense, is that was her version of comfort to her. But if she had just taken two seconds to I wrote down on my sheet, review the chart and double underline that. If she had just taken two seconds to look, she could have just said, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 31:17

And then would have been stop talking. And that would have been enough.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

Yeah. I think, you know, unfortunately, you know, in medicine, things are so nuanced. And depending on how big your chart is, I'm sure my chart's pretty, pretty big. If we got to print it off, um, I think about when I miscarried the first time. I um had done most of it on my own. I had passed that baby on my own, but there was still some problems afterwards. I'd had some bleeding and I had had, I started having like fevers. And so my Obi-Guine was like, I think we gotta go in and we gotta figure out what's going on. I think you have an infection. And so he brought me into the hospital for a DNC two months after I had supposedly passed that baby. And no one understood that that DNC was a result of a miscarriage. Like, no one, and I I'm a provider, right? So I'm not special. Um, although some of these are my colleagues, right? And you would think that they would see that, but nobody, there was nothing in my chart to flag that I was a breed mother. Nobody said anything to me. I was like pretty sick. I was having like gastro, I was having belly issues, major problems, as you can use your imagination to understand. Um, and I remember feeling deep shame because I needed help getting cleaned up after the DNC was done. Again, use your imagination. And that nurse treated me in a way that, like, this is gross. And I'm like, trust me, I don't want to be here. I don't want to be sick. I don't want any of these things to happen. But that was heartbreaking to me on both sides as a lost mom and as a provider, that no one knew the reason why I was there and why wasn't that like somewhere in my chart? Why wasn't that flagged? I was never given the book that you get, even though it was an outdated, terrible book, which I think that they update it now, you know, because I'd had another DNC after that and had a very different experience and had had a lot of respect and conveying of, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry for your loss. But it was just sad to me in this experience. I I hope I'm conveying myself well, that there was so much time that they didn't, they didn't put the two pieces together, the two ends together. This was a result of a miscarriage. They had assumed that there was a different reason for this DNC. But again, I hope that anybody that might be in the medical community would take pause again in that moment to say, we see somebody for a DNC, maybe just take a beat to look back to see why, why that DNC is happening. I don't think anybody's gonna fault you in saying that you're sorry and that you want to convey empathy to them, even if you're wrong. On the other hand, if you don't convey empathy and you don't say you're sorry, that's harder to offer grace through.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really important that we we take the time to acknowledge like there are some really hurtful scenarios when women are at their most vulnerable. But can you share an example of some care that's been done really, really well? Like your friend Kim. Do you have any other examples that you can share? Because there are gaps, right? There are gaps in care, gaps in information and communication. But we wanna we want to overcome those gaps. That's the whole reason why we're talking today. But I also want to be sure and highlight some examples of care done really well. Can you speak more to that? Yeah, I can speak to two.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

So one of them I talk about, actually, I think both of them I talk about in the book, but one of them, I talk about him all the way through the book. So his name, I call him Dr. LG. So he was both the surgeon that managed my endometriosis, but he was also my obstetrician and gynecologist, right? So he did a little bit of both. So he was there for all of it, right? So if I was pregnant and I was not with a fertility center or a fertility group anymore, then I would be in front of him. And so if there was a DNC done, he was the one that did it. If there was, you know, a complication of my endometriosis, he was the one managing it. And so he saw me for pretty much all of those years. Like seven, I would say seven out of ten of those years. I was in his office regularly, really celebrating with me the celebrations and and having joy through that and really coaching me at points through that of like, you can do this. Like I believe in you. I believe the Lord wants this for you. Um, I believe the Lord has good things for you, even if it doesn't come in the form of having a baby. Um, and just saying those things over me and then and just being there. I remember in my last DNC that I had with him, they had been wheeling me down, and this is when they recognized what had happened. And so the anesthesiologist came, got me, and he was like, I would you just like a little something to put you to sleep a little bit more? And I said, No, I'm okay. He's like, You've been through a lot. It would be okay. You don't have to be brave with me, right? And which I thought was incredibly kind. And I was like, no, it's okay. I can, I can do this. And again, this is the this is where I think I'm the same as a lost mom. My experience of going in to have a procedure done, I was terrified. And I'd had it done before. It didn't change my circumstance. I was still a patient, I was still incredibly vulnerable. They got me in the room, and my doctor, Dr. LG, walks over and he leans over me and he says what the things he has to say, which is this is what we're doing today. Do you agree? And I said, Yes. And he's like, I'm gonna stay here with you. I'm going to be with you this whole time. I will not let anything happen. And he held my hand the entire time until I went to sleep. So I that was so important because I would not have told anybody that I was terrified. I was like, I'm strong. I'm gonna get through this, right? But he wouldn't see it. He knew me and he was like, I can tell you're scared and I'm gonna be here with you. Um, in another circumstance, I had seen one of my reproductive endocrinologists in New York, and his name was Dr. Corley, and he was very clear with me right up front that he was a believer. And he said, Anytime I do a procedure, this is an IVF transfer, I pray over my patients. Are you comfortable with that? And I was like, Yes. Like I never experienced that before. And when he Peyton, this this prayer, like again, very vulnerable state, where I'm in the stirrups, I'm getting the things done, and everything's finished. I'm sitting in the bed. And he he says, I'm gonna put my hand on you. Is that okay? I'm gonna put my hand on your shoulder and I'd like to pray over you and your baby. And I was just like, This has never happened before. I'm like, Yeah, yeah, let's do it. And he prayed the most beautiful prayer to the Lord, just interceding for me, interceding for my body, interceding for for life over death, and praying for peace that passed understanding that honestly gave me such a hope that I hadn't experienced before and a trust in him and a trust, like we're both, again, the body of believers. And he's taking excellent care and and doing good for me, that it just it changed the trajectory of, I feel like my hope for medicine from that point on.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Wow. Like to say that that changed the trajectory for you is it just leaves me really emotional. Um where do you see opportunities to grow in how we support lost moms?

SPEAKER_00 38:19

I think from a medical standpoint, I think we just we have to do a better job of saying that child's name, making space to talk about that child. I don't care if it's been 10 years, I don't care if it's been last week, but creating a space for that mom to be able to express whatever she wants to express in that moment. Maybe she doesn't want to express anything, and that's just fine too. But again, I think we are so quick to go through a medical history and just tick it off and not like leave space for somebody to lament, for them to express anxiety, for them to grieve, right? I we think grief is so linear. We say that all the time, right? But why not open up? Why not open up a safe area for them to be able to do that? Because I think that's what is generous and what is right. It's what they need. And a lot of cases, when I've done it, I, you know, it it has not surprised me to have somebody really have an emotional moment, but then be grateful for that. Because as we all know, it's it doesn't matter the length of time that we are out from that, that is still a loss that needs to lament. Um, and it doesn't matter if it's been 10 years, it doesn't matter if it's been 20 years. Um, so I think just creating space when you are in front of when we're in front of that patient to say, I noticed, I noticed that you lost your son. What was his name? How are you doing? How's your family? Right? It doesn't take that long. And honestly, it's what they're living from a foundational aspect in their life, right? We both know this. Like we think that we're, you know, I don't want to bring it up because it might make them emotional. Guess what? It lives on loop in the brain. And so I'm not gonna help them process their grief any better by not recognizing it. So I think just creating space for them to offer up what they're feeling in that moment or to say, no, I'm I don't want to talk about this or I'm good. It's just respect for them.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

Yeah, respect goes a long way. And you're right. I think it's really good to point out that if people are not in a space where they want to talk about it, pushing that button further isn't going to be helpful either. And so it's just, I think it is a a real skill development to learn to read people um and to notice their body language, to review their chart first, you know, and to to acknowledge, like to get looped back to the very beginning of our conversation, that acknowledgement and the respect can go so far for for that patient. And I I know I'm gonna mess this up, so I'm not even gonna try and quote the person, but um he talks about how when people are able to lament, that can develop into trust. And you mentioned gratitude. And I think that that line, you know, that that is something I wish more people would recognize is that just by giving that space to lament, if they want to, can develop a more trustworthy relationship between the two of you.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Exactly. And I think you might even be behooved to find out that that that loss may play a role in what we're dealing with today, right? Like it really provides a wraparound experience or understanding of like, you know what, this this may play a role with how they're experiencing whatever the symptoms they're here for and and how can I meet them in that by understanding that through that lens.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

So beautifully said. Thank you for for mentioning that. As we close, I want to say, I want to ask you, what is one thing you wish people better understood about caring for someone experiencing loss?

SPEAKER_00 41:46

Hmm. I think when we're caring for somebody that is experiencing loss is to not bring your own theology, your own expectations, your own understanding of of how they got there, like like our the nurse that answered the call that said, This isn't this isn't a real baby. Really, you have to remove yourself completely from the situation because each each loss is very unique and grief is very unique. And where the person is in that process is not a A to B to C. Somebody might still be an A, right? And and their child could have died, you know, I could have had a miscarriage five years ago. But today I feel like I'm starting all over and all over again, and for whatever reason. Or I might be more at peace or more healed, not fully healed, but in the healing process and able to talk about it more. But I don't think we ever should just take our own experience, like myself and what I've experienced. I would never take that and put that on somebody else to be like, well, this is this is how you you're gonna experience it. And I know that sounds so silly. I'm laughing as I say it because I'm like, this is silly, but we do it. We do it all the time. You know, even in our in our grief, you know, we all have experienced the things people say, right? It's all over the outside of my book.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

Yes. That is the first thing I noticed about the cover of this book. It says things like, This will make you stronger. When you stop trying, it'll work. Be patient. It's all in God's timing. Everything happens for oh, my favorite, everything happens for a reason. Or God told you no, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Those were all things that um, and even if you may have experienced some things in your life, like we should not, even if you have, you know, even I've I've had an experience of of loss. I would not take my experience and say this is this must be what this person is feeling because there are so many intricacies and loss and so can so many complexities and different support systems, right? Depending on where we're getting, you know, if we're in a space where like, I'm not talking to Jesus right now, or if we're in a space of, hey, my parents just got divorced and I just lost my baby last month, or if we're in a space of my doctor doesn't support me, right? We get these supports from all those three different areas. And depending on if if one has fallen out, my response in that situation is going to look very different. If I don't trust my doctor, if I don't trust my family anymore, if I don't trust Jesus, how I'm grieving is going to resent in a very different way. And so we don't, we don't, even if you do deeply know somebody, really just entering in with presence first, like we talked about, entering with your presence first and really letting the Lord lead and that that mom lead you to what what she needs.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

I'm so glad you said letting that the the Lord but letting the the mom lead. When people ask me how can I help my friend or I'm really confused by her reactions when I did X, Y, and Z. And I always try to counsel like let let her lead the way and tell you what she needs. And I also want to touch on something else that you said like you just never really know where someone is. So I've been a lost mom for 12 years now. And some days I'm at I feel like I'm at like like point A 0.5 okay not not A. Um but then other times I feel I'm at like you know W. Okay. But it also for me, and again this is so nuanced, but I I'd love your perspective on this. Sometimes it matters who's listening. So if I'm talking to a physician who understands what happened to me, that I had a uterine rupture and a postcental abruption, they understand the magnitude of what I'm saying how um it is only through divine mercy that I'm here and a very skilled surgeon. I feel like I'm just like blubbering through that conversation. But I can say the same thing to a fellow lost mom with I don't want to with relative ease, right? I'm just explaining like this is my story, right? So sometimes it really does seem to matter. So like if I walk into a hospital situation, I'm very triggered about those four walls. I'm very triggered about the person who's asking me the questions. And so you know just I think understanding that nuance and just like gently cradling that lost mom because even if you do look at her chart and you see it's been 12 years, you still have to walk tenderly and let her lead.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

Yeah. Absolutely. And I think too like you go into that space and that is vulnerability to you. You are right where you were 12 years ago, right? Receiving that news, going through those procedures and just know like from medical from a medical provider standpoint, I did I do the same thing. I was just at a standard woman's health visit this morning and I had to take a deep breath before I walked inside. That's not even Dr. LG's office. Trust me in this when I walk past his office I got to say prayers because I I I experienced the loss of almost all my babies in that in that ultrasound room. I saw them all, you know? And so um I think recognizing for us two as lost moms that this is a vulnerable place for me and really going in holding the Lord's hand with you. But I think it's really important too for me to hear this and for other medical providers to hear this. Like this this is maybe probably the most vulnerable part of Peyton's day of her coming in here, coming into the place that her world fell apart, right? Her world completely fell apart. And it doesn't matter that it was 12 years ago this is how she remembers it. And I think you're able to just be you like more data like this is what, because that's your professional world, right? And you're able to kind of be the shepherd in that moment and that's not your role. But when you go to a doctor you're now seeking care and you're now in that vulnerable place all over again. So just know like I think all of us whether medical or not or whatever we're doing we all experience that deep degree of whatever it is in our soul that is just like breaking apart when you go past those areas of remembrance, right? That are not positive for you. And just know like go in holding the Lord's hand and maybe don't be afraid to tell your provider this is hard for me because that is going to trigger me slow down. Slow down see her, right?

SPEAKER_02 48:02

Yeah. I think that's such wise and practical advice. Before we close, I want you to talk specifically about your book that just came out. Share a little bit about the book what what readers can find inside.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

Yeah so Baron um as I kind of stated before is is my story of infertility kind of woven through the stories of women in the Bible. And as we know like there's there's the common ones that we we all hear about all the time right Elizabeth, Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel. But then there's also the ones like Manoa's wife that's Samson's mom that was infertile. There's the Shunamite woman um which some people have identified there's Ruth right we got to see Ruth I actually identify better with Naomi than I do with Ruth. I think Ruth did a better job of walking out her infertility and her circumstances than I did. I was more the Naomi of I'm bitter and I've left and gone to a land to seek out sustenance because I'm experiencing famine only to come back to that land and experience that they're abundant and I'm the one who now has a famine, right? Because she lost her whole family. That was that was my story of I feel like I've lost everything. Now I had gotten a diagnosis of endometriosis. I started losing babies I felt my family my parents had divorced I just felt like I was the one who was experiencing famine while everybody else was living in the land of abundance and I very well could have changed my name tomorrow but I did not but again the Lord brought people around me. He brought my pastor's wife and different people to say I will not leave you. I will be with you your Lord is my Lord. We worship him together and I will serve you and I will take care of you even though you're in a space where you're kind of bitter and difficult to be around. So I explore all those stories but then also kind of patch in my own experiences throughout them of loss and of infertility. And I give the whole story right up front in the beginning of the book as well. So that way you're not like wait how many babies did she have what is she doing? But it was just it's just been such a blessing to me because even though you know some people look at my story be like oh you have these beautiful children and and your life clearly came to a close the way that you wanted it really this story wasn't in a way as much as it was about the children it was much more about my heart about my heart breaking open and myself realizing how I had mischaracterized God and about how God just just gently shaped me through that wilderness to say that I'm so much more that you are missing and where I can provide abundant love and growth I will do it and of me just kind of shifting towards him. So this is really a rescue story of my heart more than anything else more than more than the children more than the fertility so I'm just really excited for anybody who needs it to read it.

SPEAKER_02 50:40

And if people want to connect with you after the podcast or after they read your book how can they do that?

SPEAKER_00 50:44

I have a website it is www dot heatherlevine author dot com. You can find me on social media on both on Instagram under Heather Levine Author, on Facebook I'm on Heather Levine. I would absolutely love to chat with you so reach out anytime. Heather thank you so much this has been great.

SPEAKER_03 51:02

Yeah thank you so much for having me Peyton Thank you for being a part of this conversation at Gathering Hope we believe that caring well for lost moms goes beyond words. It looks like presence understanding and a willingness to learn how to show up in meaningful ways. Through our Beyond Words workshop we continue to equip individuals, ministries and healthcare professionals to support grieving mothers with compassion and care. If something for this conversation stayed with you we'd love for you to take a next step. You can share this episode with someone in your life who wants to care well. Follow along with Gathering Hope on Instagram, Facebook or TikTok or visit gatheringhope.org to learn more about our Beyond Words workshop and how we can bring it to your community. And as always whether you're a lost mom or someone who cares about lost moms, we're so grateful you're here to