Beyond Words with Jamie Hinton

What happens when the system meant to care for you doesn’t always know how?

In this episode of The Sucky Sisterhood Podcast, Peyton sits down with Jamie Hinton, a licensed midwife in Texas and a loss mom who brings a unique perspective from both sides of care.

Together, they talk about:

• What it’s like to experience loss as both a provider and a patient
• The gaps in training, support, and compassion within care systems
• Why presence and empathy matter more than getting everything “right”

Jamie shares from her own story, as well as the many families she has walked alongside over the years. She offers an honest look at the realities of care, the moments that can cause harm, and the small but meaningful ways providers can better support loss moms.

This conversation is both deeply personal and eye-opening, offering insight into how care can be improved and reminding us that behind every role is a human being who needs to be seen, supported, and cared for.

🔗 Connect with Jamie Hinton

Email: midwifejamiehinton@gmail.com
Text: 214-493-7906

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the Sucky Sisterhood Podcast by Gathering Hope. I'm Peyton Lauderdale, host of the podcast and co-founder of Gathering Hope. Alongside Carol Vantyne, our co-founder and producer of this podcast, we're so glad you're here. This season is centered around the work we do through our Beyond Words workshop, where we equip healthcare professionals, ministry leaders, and others in the community to better support women who've experienced miscarriage, stillbirth, or infant loss. Over time, we realize that while there are many conversations about how to care for lost moms, there are far fewer that acknowledge the experience of those providing that care. One of our deepest hopes for this season is to help bridge that gap. In each episode, we're sitting down with people who walk closely with lost moms in some of their hardest moments. From medical professionals to counselors to ministry leaders, we're creating space for honest conversations about what that compassionate care can really look like. For some of our guests, this work is not only professional, but it's personal. And we want to acknowledge and honor that too. Each of these conversations has been a learning opportunity for us. They've reminded us of the importance of staying curious and listening well, and our hope is to bring understanding, perspective, and a more human side to these roles. Before we dive in, I want to take a moment to say this. We've come to deeply appreciate the weight that people in these roles carry. They're often present in moments that are incredibly tender and devastating, and that's not something that's always seen or acknowledged. So this season we want to be a space where people who walk alongside lost moms are honored too. Whether you're a lost mom yourself or someone who cares about lost moms, we're really glad you're here.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Today, Peyton is joined by Jamie Hinton, a licensed midwife in Texas with over a decade of experience, who began her work in birth as a doula and childbirth educator before starting her own independent midwifery practice. In this conversation, they explore what it looks like to care for lost moms from both sides of the room and the importance of compassion, presence, and truly seeing the person in front of you.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

And I just want you to tell everyone a little bit about yourself. Let us know who you are, and then what drew you to be a midwife. Great.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

I have a private, private independent practice and do mostly home births for clients. Some clients plan hospital birth, and we do planned co-care with either OB or MFM care and birth in the hospital. So that's a little bit about what I do as far as profession. And then I have six kids at home. And then one, my seventh baby, was born between 20 and 21 weeks. And then I've had two early miscarriages as well. And that's that's about it for that.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

So what drew you to become a midwife?

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Becoming a midwife. So what's actually really funny is that I never wanted to be a midwife. I never wanted to do anything with birth, to be honest. I was a seventh grade teacher. I taught math pre-algebra to seventh graders. It was so now I joke I've gone from one set of hormones to the other, but it's great. Um, so I taught and then I was pregnant with my first baby. And so I finished the year out when I had her. I went back at six weeks postpartum, finished that school year, and just didn't feel like it was the right place for me to return to. I wanted to stay home, just have more flexibility with my schedule. So I loved teaching, and so I started out with teaching childbirth classes. I went through and got certified to teach Bradley Method classes. Um, I did not teach Bradley Method for very long. Um, I didn't agree with some of the philosophy that they wanted their instructors to have. And so I wrote my own curriculum and then started teaching classes for people planning births anywhere, whether it was hospital, home, birth center, midwives, or OBs, it didn't really matter. Um I loved doing that. And from that is where I realized I didn't really know very much about birth, except for my own one experience that I had. And then, you know, that grew. I did have my second and third babies while I was teaching classes. But after I had my third, I decided, okay, I've been a childbirth educator and then a doula for the last several years. And now I think I would like to have the responsibility of being a midwife. So a few weeks, two weeks after I had my third baby, I bought the academic curriculum and started working on that, and then started my my apprenticeship within a few months, three months, I think. So that's awesome. I really wasn't like a huge like, oh, this is why I want to become a midwife. It was really, I really loved learning and education. And the more that I taught, the more that I do led, the more that I saw, the more that I learned and thought, okay, this is this is the next step.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

And those childbirth classes are how we know each other. That's right. Um, and so just connecting all these years later, I'm so grateful for that reconnection with you. Yes. The fact that you say that you just love learning doesn't surprise me at all. I love that about you. That you're like always looking for like more information. How can we do this better, safer? You know, what do I need to know as a midwife? Tell me through all of your years as a midwife, and you know, you yourself as a lost mom, what are some of those interactions that you've had with lost moms over the years? Like, what has that looked like? And what do those moments feel like for you? Like what introduces to like the other side of the room, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Yeah. So very early on as a doula, not even as a midwife or a student midwife, but as a doula, I had a client who was on bed rest in the hospital because of preterm labor, I believe it was. And so they were interviewing doula's, wanted someone to be with them through the birth. Um, they knew that their baby had a heart defect, but did not know of any other issues going on with the baby. They ended up hiring me to be their doula, and their baby was born having a tricem diagnosis. And so the baby did not live very long post-birth. Um, but it was, it's like such a strange place to use words like I was honored and blessed to be there, but not strange to me. You know, people outside this community that don't they're like, you're honored to be there, you know, that's so strange. I'm like, it's not strange at all. I mean, these are both the best and the worst moments of people's lives um that you're a part of. So anyway, I I was there for when the baby entered the world, and then they asked me to be there when she left the world. And so I can still remember, you know, it'll make me cry, of course, but you know, sitting with them in the Nikki room um and just helping them hold her. And then they asked me to listen to her heartbeat and let them know when it was no longer there. Um, just you know, the things that you walk through with other people, there's just really there aren't really words that describe the relationship then that you have built with them and the memories that you share with them because yeah, you see the baby's last breath, you know. And then I attended the memorial service, and then every year it's we text pictures back and forth, and I've then been the midwife for their other babies that they've had after her. And yeah, that that's where it started. Um, I didn't have any training in loss or grief or how to support a family through that. It really was just fly by the seat of your pants and try to figure out, you know, and so I developed a lot of compassion, um, empathy for families walking through that. Um, I saw several other babies who did not come home with their families when I was a doula and then a student midwife. And then, of course, entering into my own practice, miscarriages. One in four women will miscarry in the first trimester. And so unfortunately, it's a large part of what we walk through with families. Yeah. And then the resulting future pregnancies and the anxiety that comes with that, and the needing lab work or sonograms or just reassurance in some form or fashion.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

So you said that you kind of, you know, like fly by the sea of your pants kind of thing. And because there there just really isn't a ton of training out there yet. What were some of the things that you have learned along the way?

SPEAKER_01 8:56

I will say the biggest thing that I do or learned was just you just need to be there for people. It doesn't really matter that you know what to do or not to do. You you just need to show up and show up like genuinely and with your whole heart. And it needs to be about the person who is going through the loss. I've seen the other side of that where it's not always that way. Um, and so I think that's the biggest thing that I've learned.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

Can you describe that the opposite side of that, like what that has looked like?

SPEAKER_01 9:31

Yeah, I mean, everybody brings their own lives into the room. Something I do, it doesn't matter what type of birth it is, what or where it is, whether it's home or hospital, whether you know it's a a still birth that we know is occurring or a live birth, you need to walk into the room and leave everything of yours at the door and then go in for those people. I have seen when that is not done, uh, where people either carry in their ego or they carry in their own hurt and their own trauma, and they're not able to fully support the family that needs supported. And so then it becomes it's not the word sterile is not right, but without compassion, without empathy, without feeling, this is robotic. Um, yeah, that is harmful.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

It's not just not helpful, but it's harmful. Um, are you open to sharing your own lost experience and what your was a hospital experience, correct? Yes. So what what did that look like for you in the hospital?

SPEAKER_01 10:36

So I even though I do mainly home birth for clients out of the hospital, I have developed several high-risk factors over the last eight years of having babies that necessitate me having hospital births and hospital providers. Um, so I was seeing a maternal fetal medicine doctor throughout my pregnancy. Um, I started out as well with certified nurse midwives that deliver in the hospital because I did want a midwife at the birth. Um I even knowing I have several risk factors, I've had several healthy babies born even with the same risk factors, but I'm not ignorant to the fact that these things they happen, whether you have risk factors or not, whether you have warnings or not. Everything looked great with my baby. Um I had an anatomy scan at 18 weeks, um, where everything looked perfect. And so three days later, after the anatomy scan, I woke up in the morning and felt contractions in my back. And I remember saying to my husband, I was getting ready for work, and I said, I'm having these contractions, and they're very regular and very timable, and they're they're painful, but they're all in my back. And I said, This is so weird. Um, I'll text my doctor, you know, if this continues, and then went about my day. And I had then the whole drive to work. I got to work to my office, saw clients, and I just knew, I just knew, but I had to kind of hit a pause button on that because I was seeing my own patients, my own clients in the office. And so I ignored what I thought I knew was going on, and I just thought, you know, I either won't feel him move again, um, or I'll start bleeding, or something will happen. But I don't think he's here anymore.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

Oh, you you already felt like that that was I did.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Yeah, I felt those contractions, and then this sounds so strange, but I felt this like spasm in the lower part of my abdomen, and then I didn't feel anything else after that. I didn't have any more contractions, I didn't have any more anything, but I also didn't feel him move again, and I had felt him move prior to that. The mind is an interesting thing, you know, and so I basically knew I can't I can't do this right now because I have people who are due to have their babies. And so I waited until my next several clients had had their babies, and then I tried to listen to his heartbeat with a Doppler and could not find it. And so I texted my doctor and said, Hey, I don't think things are okay. I haven't felt movement and I can't find a heartbeat with a Doppler, and I should be able to find a heartbeat with a Doppler. She said, Yeah, of anyone, I think you should be able to find the heartbeat with a Doppler. Exactly what I was gonna say, Jamie. Yeah, yeah. So she asked me to come to the hospital then, and so I did. She wasn't able to be there. Um I had everything was totally fine, but I really truly love my doctor. And so I wish that she could have been there just because I totally trust her and love her and have a good relationship, which matters a lot.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Yeah, you know better than anybody else, Jamie, right? What trust and like the intimacy of that patient provider, like what that means.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Yeah, yeah. So she was so sweet and arranged um for me to go to OBED without having to wait or be seen by a hospitalist or anything like that. And so there was another maternal fetal medicine doctor there waiting for me with the Sano on. Um, and then some of my favorite nurses that I've ever worked with were there as well. And then two of the nurse midwives that I am friends with and that were involved in my care, they met me there as well. So there was a lot of support, which was great. Because even though I knew it's like you don't know until you see and hear it from somebody else. Yeah. You still think maybe I'm the crazy one, maybe I don't know what's going on, maybe I I'm just still hopeful. But uh the the doctor put the sonno on and said, I'm I'm sorry, I don't see any activity. Um, so she asked if she could do measurements. Um, and I said, Yeah, do whatever you need to do. And so she did. And I said, I'm sure that it lines up with this date that I remember these contractions, and that's the date that he measured. So I don't honestly remember a whole lot after that, up until leaving to go home, other than they were like, You, you know, the induction, like you can be induced, and so that's likely what you need to do because your past 20 weeks, and so they scheduled that, and I was I was set to go in the next morning. So we went home because all of our kids were home, um, and we needed to arrange for my mother-in-law to come and care for them while we went to the hospital the next morning. But went to the hospital, um, I was induced and had him, but the support throughout that was I don't know, they're it's amazing, really isn't you know, it was the saddest day, but I had the the best of people.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

Walk me through knowing what you know medically, but also Jamie, I have to tell you, you sound like the most normal lost mom. All those things that you were thinking, like, okay, logically I know this, but like maybe, you know, like I I still have hope. Because you're still a mom. Yeah. You know, was that was that something that you have wrestled with as like, okay, logically I know this, but I'm feeling this.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Um, the hardest part, I think, as a provider and being a lost mom is that you need to be treated like the mom that that you are. Yeah. I think that that's hard for some people to understand whether we're dealing with loss or life, either one. I have multiple clients that will ask me, so when you're when you have babies, do you just do it yourself? Do you just take care of yourself? And it's just this, it's a blissful ignorance, but you can't take care of yourself in the same way that a provider takes care of you. They're two very, very different roles. And you definitely, as a mom, you have so much emotion and so much vulnerability, and you're giving birth, you're doing all these things that everybody else does. You need to be treated like everybody else when you're when you're doing that. You know the textbook things, you know the things that you've done for other people, but when it's you, it's just you. You can't be the provider and the mom at the same time. So I really appreciated my providers and my nurses, everyone, they were really great at that. Like we we know who you are, we know what you do, but we also know that this this is your baby, this is your birth, this is your you know, your life. This isn't you taking care of someone else. Please let us take care of you.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

Was that difficult for you to say yes to?

SPEAKER_01 17:43

No, I know I'm so glad. Yeah, I that's what I wanted. Like I wanted that because you cannot function in that part of your brain anymore. You shouldn't have to, I guess, is what it is. You shouldn't have to function as anything other than a grieving mom. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

As you think about the other clients that you have walked with in those in that same position, so many people just don't realize what you're carrying. And if there's one thing that you could let us know as lost parents, what is it that you would want us to know?

SPEAKER_01 18:20

I think the the one thing would be that providers are human too. Um, and we we do as much as we leave things at the door, as much as I personally try to leave things at the door, there also is just the human side of you that cannot. I have a very special client, friend of mine, um, that I was her doula for her first birth, a student midwife for her second, midwife for the third. She's had several miscarriages in the first trimester that we have walked through together. And then her last baby, she lost in the second trimester. And it was not very long after I lost my son. And so I will never forget that she allowed me to still be human.

SPEAKER_02 19:09

What did that look like for the two of you?

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Um, you know, just sharing with each other uh our feelings and our stories. And when I took her to the same hospital that I delivered my baby at in the room across the hall, she understood why that was difficult for me to walk down the hall and into the room and look across the hall and see where I'd had my own baby. When she was very understanding of you're crying, but you're cry you're crying for both of us, and that's okay. You know, like that's okay. I actually ended up catching her baby because anyone who's had a a second trimester loss knows that labor sometimes takes a long time to get going, but then once it's going, it typically goes really quickly, and sometimes there's not a lot of warning before the baby is born. Um, and that was the case for her as well. And so I won't leave the room basically when I'm with somebody having a loss because you just don't you don't know when the baby is gonna come. And so I was able to be there and catch her baby for her um and wait until she was ready to see her daughter, since a provider at the hospital was not able to make it to the room in time.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

But you know, I I dressed her her daughter and just helped her with pictures and all of the things, and it was so difficult on many levels to do that, but also really wonderful to be able to provide her with that.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

I can imagine. And using the the word wonderful seems so counterintuitive. Yeah. But I also just knowing you, can't imagine where else you would be.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Yeah, I was just about to say, I had a lot of people that asked, you know, do you want to find somebody else to go? You know, maybe you shouldn't do this. And it's like, no, I mean, no, I wouldn't want anybody else to be there for her. And it wasn't just that it was the relationship that we had, but I know what she's going through. I know what she would like. Um, and so I know that I can do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Part of the reason we decided to do this season in the way that we're doing it is to help bridge that gap between lost moms and their providers. And the reason I asked that question is because it exists, right? Like we just in the moment, some of us are, some of us aren't. In the last interview I did, the person shared, you know, I had a lost mom look at me and say, How are you? And um, I I imagine that probably happened during that labor and delivery. But I I just really want people to know that the people caring for us are humans too, just like you said. And we can't, we can't leave that out that has to factor in, right? We don't want it to be all uh Clinical, yes. The expertise is is why you're there. But also bringing some of that humanity in, it goes such a long way. Yeah. And Jamie, what has been the most surprising thing to you, either about this work or about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 22:18

That's a good question. I would say the most surprising thing about myself in this work is that you can eventually go on through life and carry with you what has what has happened and still care for other people. There was a time shortly after I had my son that I was very afraid that I would not be able to have compassion and empathy for other people anymore. Just because it's so heavy, everything is so heavy, and you constantly, as a provider, are taking on things with other people. And everything is about someone else, you know. And at a time, at the time when I lost my son, everything I needed things to be about me. And that's really, really hard for people to do when you are the one that's always giving. So it has been surprising to come through that. It's like the saying that you can have grief and gratitude at the same time. You can carry deep sorrow and joy at the same time. Um, you can carry your own experience and still care for other people at the same time. And that's been it's been surprising and hard and good altogether.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

What are some small things that make a bigger difference than people might expect?

SPEAKER_01 23:32

I think really one of the only things that matters is connecting with the person that you're with and following their lead on what they need. It's so hard to even put it into words because sometimes it's really just an innate knowledge that you have from watching people to know. Some people are going to be laughing and then they're going to start crying again. You know, you have to be able to recognize that and no judgments over anything. I think that people who have not been through either lost themselves or with other people, they don't realize what that's like and that that's normal and that that's good. So the most important thing is just being there. That's it. That's all you can do. My own personal experience, my my doctor visited me the day that I was there to be induced, and just coming, coming in when it was her day off. She wasn't on call. I mean, she saw me as a person, and that's the biggest thing is that providers, nurses, anyone who's in that room and after sees them as a person and allows the space for the grief and their life both at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

Yeah, and to take whatever form it needs to take. Yes. Yeah. I I'm so glad you mentioned that. So when we were in the hospital, our small group from church came up the next day and found ourselves laughing as a group. And anyone who would have walked by that room would have assumed that that I was going to take home a baby with me. They would have had no idea that it was literally the worst moment of our life. And I I reflect on that often, Jamie. And like, how in the world did that happen? First of all, like, but you know, looking back now, I'm like, only the Lord could have provided, knowing me as a person that I needed to laugh in order to like release whatever was going on inside. But yeah, to not to not judge that is huge.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Yeah, it doesn't always look like what you think it will look like or what it should look like. Um, those are those are huge things. And realizing too that the birth of the baby, the death of the baby, that's not the end. Um, and I think that's a huge thing that is oftentimes missed in our culture. It's a relief for other people because they feel like it's the end, but it's it's the beginning for the person going through it.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

Yeah, it is the beginning. You're you're forcing a lot of reflection for me today. Um, I I remember holding James, and I don't know if he can relate to this or not, but I remember holding him and he didn't live for very long, but I thought, I really and this is so painful to say, but I'm like, son, I need you to go so I can like start on this. Um, like looking back now, I'm like, why why did I even have that thought? Well, because grief is weird. That's one and trauma is awful. But I too like was like, okay, like I just need to like get on with the next part, not knowing the next part was going to be such a long journey. Yeah. Tell me where you see opportunities to grow in how we support lost moms, whether it's something that you've learned yourself or things that you've witnessed as being part of hospital births, could be anywhere in there.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Yeah. Um, I've learned a lot about that. I I'm on a committee for Tarrant County where we review fetal and infant mortality for the county. It's it's often a question and thing that we talk through if the parents are willing to do an interview with the team. So just from that, I've learned quite a bit. Um where do you start, right? Where do you start? There are so many things. And it it's things that are small and it's things that are big. We need we need training, we need staff and nurses and providers able to provide compassionate care, which means that we need trauma counselors and therapy just provided for nurses and providers. It is the strangest thing to have to walk into a room with someone that you can't find a heartbeat and tell them that, and then five minutes after they leave, have your next person come in with a healthy, wonderful pregnancy, which they have no idea the other side of that, and you can't show them anything else. Like that's a really, really important thing.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Yes. Um, so we need that. We need safe spaces for families to have their babies and to spend time with their non-living babies. You know, there needs to be rooms away from the normal live birth rooms in the hallway, hearing the heart rate monitor that's next door to you, hearing the crying baby as it's born. And it doesn't work just to separate them to an isolated area because they don't need to be s isolated either. You know, didn't postpartum up. I could go on and on and on about million. So that's what we're here for, Jamie. You know, postpartum care. It like I said, it doesn't end once the baby is is gone. And we have a hard enough time for with that with our living babies getting good postpartum care, but then a million fold for our babies that aren't living. I mean, people who have lost a baby should not have to call and make their own postpartum appointment. They should have people who are checking up on them and who are scheduling them and telling them when they need to be seen and being seen. They need to be seen. Yeah, and they need to be seen for more than just what do you want to do for birth control? You know, because that's kind of the standard of care out there. And then knowing these providers need to know what normal grief is versus postpartum depression and what should be treated with meds versus what shouldn't. Um, those are those are huge things that could make an enormous difference for people. Anything else? Well, let me get my list out.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

I know that I know this. I'm not like, hey, let's just keep going and how bad it is. You know this system so intimately, and you also have such a big heart for people who are having living babies and babies that don't go home with their parents. And so you just know this better than anyone else. And if there are other things out there that need to be changed, we want to talk about them.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

I mean, just from the the provider side of being a lost mom, and I don't I don't know how this is in every profession, of course, but being a midwife, I think that most people would expect that a lot of that support would come from the out-of-hospital community. And I was shocked and devastated at the opposite of that. I mean, not that the hospital does everything great and right, but they knew more than anyone I interacted with out of hospital. It was very difficult to get coverage for my clients, it was very difficult to get coverage for people to be seen in my office. You know, your brain cannot function in a normal way for a long time. Um, and so being expected to see clients, take care of clients, answer questions, um, it was shocking to me. And the expectation that, you know, within less than two weeks that I would be ready. Oh, I'm sure you want to see your own clients again and take care of them. I mean, no, I don't. I can't imagine anything worse right now, you know, and so just that was a huge awakening for me to realize there aren't there aren't good support systems for providers in place who go through loss. I mean, some of the most hurtful things I think that were said to me were by other midwives. And so it was just shocking and devastating both.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

Jamie, what were some of those things that you heard?

SPEAKER_01 31:38

I've heard over and over how, you know, it wasn't a term baby. It was a 20, it was 20 weeks, you know, almost like, well, it doesn't matter. Um from midwives, from midwives who give care to people carrying babies. I'm like, you really do you really believe that the baby you're listening to in someone's uterus at 20 weeks, that if that baby were to die, that that's less than the person at 36 weeks or 38 weeks. Um the bizarre, it's bizarre. Um, I unfortunately agreed to go to dinner with a few midwives in January. My son was born November 19th, and so I went to dinner two months later with two midwives. And I for some reason thought that it was probably going to be helpful to me because I thought, oh, they care about me and they know that I'm having a hard time. This will be great. And I cried the entire drive home over an hour, because not once did they ask, How are you? How's it been? How are you functioning? Do you need anything? None of that. It was just a lot of just normal. They're gossiping and what hard things were going on in their lives. And then what I'll never forget is the midwife who started talking about one of her past clients who had left a negative review online of her. The negative review got left because the midwife didn't go to the hospital, didn't provide any support or care. And the midwife looked directly across the table at me and said, It's not like she had like a full-term baby. It was a 17-week baby.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

You know, never ever forget the feel of that. We don't have a training problem, we have a compassion problem. We have a heart problem.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Yeah, we have a heart problem.

SPEAKER_02 33:30

Yeah, we do have a training problem too. But that's it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

Um, I'm sorry. Yeah, I mean, there's many more. There's many more. And at some point, you know, I understand providers have to compartmentalize. Yeah. And that is how you go on, and that is how you provide care for other people. But you compartmentalize, you don't shut down empathy in your heart. But I hear providers all the time talking about, you know, this 20-weeker and that 24-weeker and this, and they're no, they're not humans to them anymore. It's it's a gestation and an it and a situation, and that's devastating.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

Something to be managed.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 34:11

Yeah, it is devastating. We work so hard in this organization to shut down comparison because it only hurts people. Yeah. You know, if if we have um someone who has experienced a six-week loss or a 17-week loss, or a 21-week loss, or a 40-week loss, every single one of those families has someone who isn't with them when they take family pictures or they have dinner at night, or you know, or it's bathtime, or it's time to read books before bed. There's someone missing. And it baffles me that there is any of that out in the world that would minimize in any way, shape, or form.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot. And we haven't even gotten into the conversation about how midwifery and midwives' actions can cause loss for people. Would you like to speak to that? And then the blame that gets placed on the family. Um I just it's it's been an interesting journey. It started when I was a student of seeing I was a doula for some two families who lost babies, one of them during birth, one of them at 41 and a half weeks. But both situations I now realize, I did not realize it then, but just there was a huge lack of evidence-based care being given, recommendations that weren't being followed. Um, instead of any kind of self-reflection and what can we do better? There's so much blame on the family, and they chose this. No, they didn't choose this. They didn't know. They didn't know. So I've just seen, I've just seen a lot of that. Again, it's the shocking and devastation of realizing this is how it is. Like this is not a training problem. There is a heart problem, too. And you can't train that into anybody. And that's really difficult.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

I would say um, I can 100% relate to that. No matter what the circumstances are surrounding a loss, every woman is gonna go, What did I do?

SPEAKER_00 36:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

And you have to have a provider, a friend, someone that you trust to speak the truth, which is you didn't cause this.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

This is not your fault.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Right.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

That's not something you need to carry. Right. Grieving the loss of your child is something that you will do for the rest of your life in various ways throughout this journey, but you can erase the part that this is your fault. Yes. Um, and and knowing that there is um a lack of training to say it nicely, um that led to some of these situations. Yeah, we do think about that a lot. How did I allow myself to get into this situation? I put a lot of trust into their expertise and their time and their talents and their education that I thought was there.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

And so, yeah. Do you have anything else you want to add on to that?

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Providers are human. And so it's it's that double-edged sword that is a very hard thing to carry around all the time. Providers will make mistakes. It's just how they handle that and what they do after it that makes a difference for other families and the ones that have already come through. Yeah. What do they need to do differently? I don't know that I have a good answer for that right now because there are so many things that go into it and so many changes that I believe need to be made to our um training and certification licensure of out-of-hospital midwives. That my answer is not one that's like, here's what we can do to fix it, but there are things that we need to do to move towards fixing it.

SPEAKER_02 37:58

Okay. Is there anything practically that can be done in the short term?

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Well, support people who are trying to make changes. Don't buy into the belief that babies just die, because some babies do die, and some you can't do anything about. And mine is one of those. But there are so many others, many others, and we know this from statistics that stillbirth can be prevented a lot of the time. And whether you have a doctor or whether you have a midwife, or whether you have a certified nurse midwife or a licensed midwife, providers need to listen to their patients, but they also need to provide evidence-based care and recommendations. And that's not happening on every level.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

Yeah, I think that's really good information for us to carry with us from this conversation. Where have you seen good care happen?

SPEAKER_01 38:51

Oh, that's a great question. I've seen good care happen in all locations with all types of providers. Licensed midwives, certified nurse midwives, OBs, hospitalists, maternal fetal medicine doctors, nurses. Um, I have seen it happen over and over again. People asking, like footprints, handprints, could we do those for you? Do you need more time? That is a question that should be asked of every single person who has a loss. Do not rush people out. Do not make them think that this has been long enough. It will never be long enough. And I think acknowledging that is really helpful. But I've seen good care given everywhere, but I've seen bad care given everywhere too. Poor care, not bad care. But things are missed. People are human. I keep going back to that. But they are. And again, it's how you deal with that and what you do after that makes the difference.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

What about you personally? Is there a client that comes to mind that you are like out of this that I wish I wouldn't wish upon anyone? I provided really good care to her.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

Um, I'm very intentional about providing follow-up care outside of the normal, like, hey, you get a, you know, three postpartum visits, come in at one to two weeks and three to four weeks and six to eight weeks. It's not, it's not routine. What happened to you is not routine. And so you need care that is not routine, you know. Check-ins, how are you doing? How's the grief today? And knowing that if she says, It's great today, I feel very normal, then an hour after that, she may off answer the opposite thing.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

Yeah, yeah, that's so true.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

Yeah, as I think it's so it's taken for granted that if somebody says, Oh, I'm good, that then they're just they're good forever. And that's not how it is at all. So yeah, I do feel like I've provided really good care for people. I'm always available to talk with them. It doesn't matter if we've done a final postpartum appointment or not. Like if it's six years down the road, I want pictures and I want to know how they really are. And yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:58

I think that what you said about what happened to you was not routine and you don't need routine care is so spot on and very, very refreshing. If someone listening changes only one thing in how they care for a lost mom, what would you want that to be?

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Um, if they were to change one thing, I think it would be don't wait for someone to tell you what to do. Just do something and be okay with it not being the right thing. You're not gonna say the right things, you're not gonna do the right things, but you're doing something which matters more than doing nothing. Um, I had friends who showed up and set up my Christmas tree in 2024, and that was so appreciated because I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

Yeah, I think that's a really good place for us to end. Jamie, if people want to connect with you after this podcast, how can they do that?

SPEAKER_01 41:49

Email is midwifejamiehitten at gmail.com or they can text me at 214-493-7906, and that's probably the best way to get a hold of me because I don't like email. I don't like talking on the phone.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

And you are always on the go and in the midst of so many things.

SPEAKER_03 42:09

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

But I know people are gonna want to connect with you afterwards, and um, thank you again for taking time with us today.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

Thank you so much for allowing me.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

Thank you for being a part of this conversation. At Gathering Hope, we believe that caring well for lost moms goes beyond words. It looks like presence, understanding, and a willingness to learn how to show up in meaningful ways. Through our Beyond Words workshop, we continue to equip individuals, ministries, and healthcare professionals to support grieving mothers with compassion and care. If something from this conversation stayed with you, we'd love for you to take a next step. You can share this episode with someone in your life who wants to care well. Follow along with Gathering Hope on Instagram, Facebook, or TikTok, or visit gatheringhope.org to learn more about our Beyond Words workshop and how we can bring it to your community. And as always, whether you're a lost mom or someone who cares about lost moms, we're so grateful you're here.